Subaru AWD ok?

I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.

I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
soft sand without needing a tow truck.

I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
nothing ever breaks.

All comments appreciated.

Bill Turner

"TeeAye" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
> covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
> has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.
>
> I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
> don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
> Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
> climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
> soft sand without needing a tow truck.
>
> I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
> reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
> nothing ever breaks.
>
> All comments appreciated.
>
> Bill Turner

Subaru AWD system is more for road handling than any off-roading. I
personally got stuck on a beach in Kauai driving an AWD Forrester (the wheel
with least resistance would turn). Unless Subaru changed this, I would
recommend a 4-runner for your use.

If you are referring to Consumer Reports assessment of jeeps as being
unreliable, they are largely exaggerated. I had two cherokees, one grand
Cherokee, and a wrangler and have not experienced any significant, or that
matter, small problems. What very little trouble I had was covered by
warranty. Also the cherokee is relatively inexpensive to maintain.

The really good news about jeeps is that you can usually pickup a good used
one for very little. My own preference is the late 90 models. I have had a
97 subby outback and ended up trading it for a 98 cherokee with select-trac
4wd that I felt much more comfortable with on snowpacked roads.

Larry


"TeeAye" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
> covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
> has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.
>
> I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
> don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
> Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
> climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
> soft sand without needing a tow truck.
>
> I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
> reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
> nothing ever breaks.
>
> All comments appreciated.
>
> Bill Turner

I don't know much about the Subarus, but I have an 87 Cherokee with 240K
miles on it. It's my daily driver and I take it on moderate trails . I
have never had to put more into it than regular maintenance requires
like plugs, wires, various filters, etc. It has never been rebuilt and
it runs very strong and has awesome 4x4 capability with it's select-trac
transfer case.

Larry Greenwood wrote:
> If you are referring to Consumer Reports assessment of jeeps as being
> unreliable, they are largely exaggerated. I had two cherokees, one grand
> Cherokee, and a wrangler and have not experienced any significant, or that
> matter, small problems. What very little trouble I had was covered by
> warranty. Also the cherokee is relatively inexpensive to maintain.
>
> The really good news about jeeps is that you can usually pickup a good used
> one for very little. My own preference is the late 90 models. I have had a
> 97 subby outback and ended up trading it for a 98 cherokee with select-trac
> 4wd that I felt much more comfortable with on snowpacked roads.
>
> Larry
>
>
> "TeeAye" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
>>covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
>>has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.
>>
>>I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
>>don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
>>Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
>>climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
>>soft sand without needing a tow truck.
>>
>>I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
>>reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
>>nothing ever breaks.
>>
>>All comments appreciated.
>>
>>Bill Turner
>
>
>

--
Best Regards,
Eric

O[][][][][][][]O
87 XJ 242, 28" White Walls
http://www.offroad-adventures.com - 4x4 Trails, Photos, Forums, Tech and
Reader's Rigs

TeeAye wrote:
>
> I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
> covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
> has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.
>
> I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
> don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
> Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
> climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
> soft sand without needing a tow truck.
>
> I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
> reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
> nothing ever breaks.
>
> All comments appreciated.
>
> Bill Turner

You may want to consider a vehicle with a true Part-Time (4Hi) 4WD mode
that locks
the front and rear driveshafts.

Also note that your tires are very important too. You might make a huge
improvement just by getting a set of tires with a more agressive tread.


Here is some background information about AWD/4WD terminology.

While AWD and 4WD are related, their differences are important. So here
is some terminology: (All typical disclaimers apply... I am NOT
conversant on all
variants of AWD.)

AWD refers to some mechanism for driving both front and rear axles,
often a viscous
coupling, but may be a center differential. This may mean that the
front
and rear driveshafts are not really locked, so 1 wheel spinning can get
you
stuck under certain circumstances. This runs in the normal ("High
range")
gearing. [A follow-up post in this thread indicates that Subarus at
least
used to use a viscous coupling and were subject to being stuck with one
wheel spinning in sand.]

4WD typically refers to a transfer case incorperating:

1- Low-range gearing (4Lo) for steep hills (going up and especially
down)
and high altitude driving. For example 2.72:1 on most recent jeeps.

2- A Part-Time (PT) mode that locks front and rear driveshafts so that
at
least one wheel on both axles must spin in order to be stuck. This
requires some slip (since front and rear tires do not follow each
other
precisely in corners) and so should not be used on dry pavement,
etc. Of
course limited slip differential and locker equiped vehicles can
spin all
4 wheels under certain situations.


2 recent Jeep transfer cases:

Command-Trac: [2Hi, 4Hi (PT), 4Lo (PT)], ie. normal 2 wheel drive, and
normal and low range Part-Time modes.

Selec-Trac: [2Hi, 4Hi (PT), 4Hi (FT), 4Lo (PT)] also has a
normal-geared
Full-Time (FT) mode with a center differential.

Quadra-Trac: 4All-Time, 4Lo - uses a viscous coupling (Pre-1996 does
not
have low-lock (4Lo FT). 1996-1998 has 4Lo PT.)

Quadra-TracII: 4All-Time, 4Lo (PT) - uses a gerotor instead of a
viscous
coupling in High range.
--
Bob Holdaway

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:17:30 GMT, Robert Holdaway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Here is some background information about AWD/4WD terminology.
<snip>

_________________________________________________________

Thanks, Bob. Just the info I was looking for. I think I'll pass on the
Subarus and go for a 'real' 4WD.

Bill Turner

if you are looking for one of the SUV type vehicles...
check out the toyota 4 runner....

my first concern would be to buy a vehicle that you have access to the
service department in the community you live in or within commuting
distance. If you live in a remote area then I would go with a toyota
or nissan product, given their relative quality. Then consider
upgrading the tires.

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:29:43 -0700, TeeAye <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:17:30 GMT, Robert Holdaway
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Here is some background information about AWD/4WD terminology.
><snip>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>
>Thanks, Bob. Just the info I was looking for. I think I'll pass on the
>Subarus and go for a 'real' 4WD.
>
>Bill Turner

----
Elbert Clarke
[email protected]
[email protected]

You don't say how far your commute is. If it ain't too far, try finding
yourself a used Suzuki Samaroi. They are virtually industructable. And if
you don't have to drive too far, fast, or turn too quickly, the "flipper"
mode won't kick in. I had one for years and took it everywhere. They ain't
gonna get you there too fast or with too much stuff, but the gas mileage is
great and in 4wd (note they are manual locking hubs - at least mine was)
they will go through anything and climb damn near straight up. Places my
Trooper couldn't and my F-150 (with limited slip) didn't even want to try.
Plus, cause of all the bad publicity, you can find one for a song (well,
depending upon how well you sing). And, if youwant to take them to the back
country where wise men don't tred, they are narrow enough to go anywhere and
you don't have much money wrapped up in it. Hope this helps.

Cheers, and happy 4-wheelin'
Papa Don


"TeeAye" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
> covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
> has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.
>
> I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
> don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
> Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
> climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
> soft sand without needing a tow truck.
>
> I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
> reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
> nothing ever breaks.
>
> All comments appreciated.
>
> Bill Turner

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:39:32 -0700, "Don" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You don't say how far your commute is. If it ain't too far, try finding
>yourself a used Suzuki Samaroi. They are virtually industructable. And if
>you don't have to drive too far, fast, or turn too quickly, the "flipper"
>mode won't kick in. I had one for years and took it everywhere. They ain't
>gonna get you there too fast or with too much stuff, but the gas mileage is
>great and in 4wd (note they are manual locking hubs - at least mine was)
>they will go through anything and climb damn near straight up. Places my
>Trooper couldn't and my F-150 (with limited slip) didn't even want to try.
>Plus, cause of all the bad publicity, you can find one for a song (well,
>depending upon how well you sing). And, if youwant to take them to the back
>country where wise men don't tred, they are narrow enough to go anywhere and
>you don't have much money wrapped up in it. Hope this helps.
>
>Cheers, and happy 4-wheelin'
>Papa Don

_________________________________________________________

Thanks, Papa Don. I'll look into a Samurai.

Bill Turner

I took my Impreza 4x4ing on sand cutbanks several times, never got
stuck. However if you want true 4wd and not AWD, maybe go with a
Toyota Matrix 4WD. That way you can avoid Jeeps and SUV garbage.

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 06:50:59 -0700, TeeAye <[email protected]> wrote:

>I live in a desert area where the road in front of my house is often
>covered with deep sand after a flash flood. My 2WD Mercury Sable wagon
>has gotten stuck again, and it's time to get a 4WD.
>
>I like the reports about Subarus on epinions.com, but "real" 4WD people
>don't seem to drive them, preferring Jeeps and such. My question is are
>Subaru AWD's any good or would I be sorry? I don't plan to do any rock
>climbing or stuff like that, I just want something that will handle deep
>soft sand without needing a tow truck.
>
>I'm leery of Jeeps because of poor reliability and high maintenance cost
>reports. Subaru owners say their vehicles run practically forever and
>nothing ever breaks.
>
>All comments appreciated.
>
>Bill Turner

"Ayr_Kabir`" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I took my Impreza 4x4ing on sand cutbanks several times, never got
> stuck. However if you want true 4wd and not AWD, maybe go with a
> Toyota Matrix 4WD. That way you can avoid Jeeps and SUV garbage.

Interesting. They look like nice vehicles, obviously not off road capable,
though. Are they really a traditional 4WD? Do they have a transfer case or
some kind of viscous coupling? I always thought they were in the same class
as other AWD vehicles, like Subaru, Santa Fe, etc, as opposed to actual 4WD
vehicles like the Jeeps, Samurai, etc.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "Ayr_Kabir`" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > I took my Impreza 4x4ing on sand cutbanks several times, never got
> > stuck. However if you want true 4wd and not AWD, maybe go with a
> > Toyota Matrix 4WD. That way you can avoid Jeeps and SUV garbage.
>
> Interesting. They look like nice vehicles, obviously not off road capable,
> though. Are they really a traditional 4WD? Do they have a transfer case or
> some kind of viscous coupling? I always thought they were in the same class
> as other AWD vehicles, like Subaru, Santa Fe, etc, as opposed to actual 4WD
> vehicles like the Jeeps, Samurai, etc.
>
>
>

AWD with traction control will get you through most anything any of the
little toy 4x4s will, although they are much harder on brakes. I'm
still not too clear on what the Matrix uses as a 4wd system but I would
assume it's a 60/40 split viscous coupling of some sort. I was sort of
hoping this thing would mean their return to WRC.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...

> > "Ayr_Kabir`" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> AWD with traction control will get you through most anything any of the
> little toy 4x4s will, although they are much harder on brakes. I'm
> still not too clear on what the Matrix uses as a 4wd system but I would
> assume it's a 60/40 split viscous coupling of some sort. I was sort of
> hoping this thing would mean their return to WRC.

Well, that is what I was wondering. I guess to get across some mud, any of
those would be OK. I never thought of any of those viscous coupled vehicles
as being "off road", but then again, the original poster indicated he wasn't
going to do any rock climbing anyway. I would guess that a unibody, viscous
coupled AWD system would be perfect. That Matrix is a nice looking vehicle
(better than the Pontiac Vibe IMHO), but I would have thought the Subaru
would be more practical (interior space, higher ground clearance, etc). If
Chrysler ever put AWD on the PT Cruiser, along with that Turbo, that would
be a real winner. (Until it broke down, which, with Chrysler, would
probably be several miles after leaving the dealership).

">> AWD with traction control will get you through most anything any of the
> little toy 4x4s will, although they are much harder on brakes. --

BTW, not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not, but I believe any of
the "toy" 4X4s, the ones with real body on frame construction and an actual
transfer case, will far exceed the off road capabilities of any Subarus,
Santa Fe, Honda CRV, etc. I would think these represent the "toys" when it
comes to eral 4X4. Nothing more than unibody car frames with wannabe SUV
bodies mounted to them. My guess is that if you took a Subaru out on a real
run, the "toy" jeep would end up driving over it's "stuck in the mud"
carcass.

"Clay-in-Ky" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> ">> AWD with traction control will get you through most anything any of the
> > little toy 4x4s will, although they are much harder on brakes. --
>
> BTW, not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not, but I believe any of
> the "toy" 4X4s, the ones with real body on frame construction and an actual
> transfer case, will far exceed the off road capabilities of any Subarus,
> Santa Fe, Honda CRV, etc. I would think these represent the "toys" when it
> comes to eral 4X4. Nothing more than unibody car frames with wannabe SUV
> bodies mounted to them. My guess is that if you took a Subaru out on a real
> run, the "toy" jeep would end up driving over it's "stuck in the mud"
> carcass.

I guess you've never heard of the Subaru Brat have you? It had actual
4wd now awd. Here are some pics of them and x6s I believe, neat
little vehicles.

http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/hpcolors.jpg
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/wcss3/shawnw/wcss3 016.jpg
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/wcss3/shawnw/wcss3 034.jpg
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/wcss3/shawnw/wcss3 060.jpg

They were made in the 80's I know and I think as far back as the late
60's. Were available turbocharged and such. From what I have heard
they are extremely cheap, good info at subarubrat.com. Just had to
stand up for the lowly subes

> I guess you've never heard of the Subaru Brat have you? It had actual
> 4wd now awd. Here are some pics of them and x6s I believe, neat
> little vehicles.
>
> http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/hpcolors.jpg
> http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/wcss3/shawnw/wcss3 016.jpg
> http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/wcss3/shawnw/wcss3 034.jpg
> http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/offroad/wcss3/shawnw/wcss3 060.jpg
>
> They were made in the 80's I know and I think as far back as the late
> 60's. Were available turbocharged and such. From what I have heard
> they are extremely cheap, good info at subarubrat.com. Just had to
> stand up for the lowly subes

You're right. I did forget about the Brats. Too bad Subaru doesn't
resurrect a modern version of the Brat instead of the AWD car based vehicles
they are selling now. Certainly nothing wrong with the current stuff, but
if they want to push this off road image, it would be nice if they had
something like the Brat that lived up to it.

>You're right. I did forget about the Brats. Too bad Subaru doesn't
>resurrect a modern version of the Brat instead of the AWD car based vehicles
>they are selling now. Certainly nothing wrong with the current stuff, but
>if they want to push this off road image, it would be nice if they had
>something like the Brat that lived up to it.
>


While some of the Subarus and Brats in particular on the sites listed
are signifcantly more capable off-roaders than stock, I doubt an older
STOCK Brat or other Subaru is more capable off-road than a current
Outback wagon is.

Subarus are inclement weather ROAD going machines. While I believe
their off-road capabilities are probably better than all but a handful
of the new "cute-utes", they are still low-slung, street tired
machines.

That being said, I do think the original poster's dilema could be
solved by a Subaru if he is only wanting to own a single, street
friendly vehicle. A Subaru would likely be able to handle his sand
dilema most of the time with a bit of speed and finess, and he
wouldn't be saddled with a poor mileage, off-road vehicle that he
didn't seem to be looking for.

As for me, I kinda like the idea of a lifted Brat or other....... No,
not a real "trail rig", but could certainly handle the logging roads I
typically travel and would be a head turner.........

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4

> You're right. I did forget about the Brats. Too bad Subaru doesn't
> resurrect a modern version of the Brat instead of the AWD car based vehicles
> they are selling now. Certainly nothing wrong with the current stuff, but
> if they want to push this off road image, it would be nice if they had
> something like the Brat that lived up to it.

Yeah, none of the modern subarus are built strong enough for much more
than going down a gravel road. Definitely nothing like what the ad
campaigns show. I would love for them to resurect something like the
brat also.

Jason Kavanaugh wrote:
>>You're right. I did forget about the Brats. Too bad Subaru doesn't
>>resurrect a modern version of the Brat instead of the AWD car based vehicles
>>they are selling now. Certainly nothing wrong with the current stuff, but
>>if they want to push this off road image, it would be nice if they had
>>something like the Brat that lived up to it.
>
>
> Yeah, none of the modern subarus are built strong enough for much more
> than going down a gravel road. Definitely nothing like what the ad
> campaigns show. I would love for them to resurect something like the
> brat also.
I had an '87 BRAT for 10 years and currently have a 2001 Forester. The
Forester (and the BAJA) is built every bit as sturdy as the BRAT was.
The only thing the BRAT had on these vehicles is the dual range,
part-time transfer case and the adjustable suspension.

-Rob