Plenty Heat Better Spin

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moremuckmush

moremuckmush

Well-Known Member
Posts
174
Location
Durham
So the old 19j , I think I can accept that she ain't going to spring into life after one spin but what I have found is that with the new battery , 30 secs of heat on new heater plugs , she spins over nice , the warmed deisel must be nicely warmed and thinned as the cranking sound changes from the original 'chug' on the old battery after 15 seconds of heat to a nice lubricated higher rpm spin bursting into life far quicker , maybe its me but this start up tends to set the tone on the initial running/ driving . How have you guys improved start up ( better engines aside) saying this my 19j runs bladdy well , contradictory to most peeps thoughts on these engines , I suppose heating time is irrelevant as long as she always starts.
 
moremuckmush said:
So the old 19j , I think I can accept that she ain't going to spring into life after one spin but what I have found is that with the new battery , 30 secs of heat on new heater plugs , she spins over nice , the warmed deisel must be nicely warmed and thinned as the cranking sound changes from the original 'chug' on the old battery after 15 seconds of heat to a nice lubricated higher rpm spin bursting into life far quicker , maybe its me but this start up tends to set the tone on the initial running/ driving . How have you guys improved start up ( better engines aside) saying this my 19j runs bladdy well , contradictory to most peeps thoughts on these engines , I suppose heating time is irrelevant as long as she always starts.
Click to expand...
The heater plugs don't exactly warm the diesel, they warm the pre combustion chambers which the atomised diesel is about to be sprayed into.
But that is maybe a minor semantic difference.
My 19j was always a good starter, but it was very low mileage. Ten seconds on the glow plugs, which were quality Denso items, and it would fire up first time in any weather.
Not so the old Perkins in my Series, that took a couple of goes on the flame starter and a good crank in cold weather, and the whole road would be full of smoke until it warmed up. :oops::D
As you suggest, it could be the increased cranking speed that is giving you better starting. The heat for ignition comes from compression in the cylinder, so a good spin over aids starting.
 
Thanks for the info , I had imagined the deisel was being thinned/heated , the engine was rebuilt during the 1st lockdown by previous owner ( photos to prove) and even during the sale conversations he wasn't greatly happy that the starting procedure hadn't improved , saying this, after all the work he done , the battery on there wasn't the best and he did mention that he'd wished he fitted stock heater plugs instead of the " improved" ones he had replaced them with , hence I've reverted back to new standard ones , the only time I really get a quick fire up is if still warm , this said she cools down quickly.
 
moremuckmush said:
Thanks for the info , I had imagined the deisel was being thinned/heated , the engine was rebuilt during the 1st lockdown by previous owner ( photos to prove) and even during the sale conversations he wasn't greatly happy that the starting procedure hadn't improved , saying this, after all the work he done , the battery on there wasn't the best and he did mention that he'd wished he fitted stock heater plugs instead of the " improved" ones he had replaced them with , hence I've reverted back to new standard ones , the only time I really get a quick fire up is if still warm , this said she cools down quickly.
Click to expand...
You can get diesel pre-heaters, but they aren't glow plugs.
They are used on road vehicles in places like Sweden, where the temperatures can get low enough to wax diesel even with additives.
They are fitted in the fuel line before the filters, make sure that any wax crystals are dissolved before clogging filter elements.
There were also bigger ones, fitted on large old diesels, mainly in ships, so that they could use locally available fuels like coconut wax, which is actually solid at ambient temperatures.
 
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Will do thanks

Perkins : would that have been the same in my series 3 I owned over 23yrs ago ? 2.25 deisel if I recall, coming down a hill without revs the bigger clapped out and I ended up with a replacement engine.

The other perkins I was familiar with was a 4108 in my boat, 6 knots flat out ...
 
Turboman said:
You can get diesel pre-heaters, but they aren't glow plugs.
They are used on road vehicles in places like Sweden, where the temperatures can get low enough to wax diesel even with
additives.
They are fitted in the fuel line before the filters, make sure that any wax crystals are dissolved before clogging filter elements.
There were also bigger ones, fitted on large old diesels, mainly in ships, so that they could use locally available fuels like coconut wax, which is actually solid at ambient temperatures.
Click to expand...

Everyday is a learning day ... Great info
 
moremuckmush said:
Will do thanks

Perkins : would that have been the same in my series 3 I owned over 23yrs ago ? 2.25 deisel if I recall, coming down a hill without revs the bigger clapped out and I ended up with a replacement engine.

The other perkins I was familiar with was a 4108 in my boat, 6 knots flat out ...
Click to expand...
It was a 4/203, which is about 3.3 litres. Common fitment in Series in the 70s and 80s. There are several on the forum to this day.
I have had two of those, a 4/248 in my tractor, and worked on lots of others, including several in boats.
Speed of boats isn't always a factor of engine size, the reduction of the gearbox, and the size of the propeller will also have an input, as will the overall length of the waterline of the hull. You need less power to get a given speed with a long thin hull than with a short fat one, which is why the boats in the Boat Race are always very long and thin.
 
tottot said:
For my well used series 3 to start well when cold I first give it a turn on the starter for two to three seconds, this introduces some fresh fuel into the combustion chambers. Ten seconds of heat and then it starts pretty quick. Give it a go, used to do the same when I had a 19j.
Click to expand...
Probably good on an old engine as well, because it will get some oil pumped into all the bearings before any load comes on them.
 
Digressing a bit but it was a bogwarner gearbox if I remember in das boat, but yes displaced Hull, prop ect all play a part.

Remember trying to get between the piers ( South shields and tynemouth ) and the tide going out was doing near 6 knots , what a night that was trying to get her in.
 
moremuckmush said:
Digressing a bit but it was a bogwarner gearbox if I remember in das boat, but yes displaced Hull, prop ect all play a part.

Remember trying to get between the piers ( South shields and tynemouth ) and the tide going out was doing near 6 knots , what a night that was trying to get her in.
Click to expand...
You should post some pics of the boat in the Boat Thread.
 
Yep was told when I sold her it was a Matelot 20 by a guy that had said he would have most likely worked on building her , always understood it was a hardy/colvic type of boat , I do regrett selling but needs must at the time , will sort some pics
 
Just extending the heat that 10 more seconds changes the spinning sound totally , far faster and a different tone if that makes sense , but good point , be worth cleaning up all the contacts
 
moremuckmush said:
<snip> 30 secs of heat on new heater plugs , she spins over nice , the warmed deisel must be nicely warmed and thinned as the cranking sound changes.
Click to expand...

Yout heater plugs heat the air in the cylinder so that when it gets compressed it exceeds the ignition point of the diesel you are injecting in. It warms everything really not only the diesel that is injected into the cylinder. Direct injection diesels like your 19J, will typically start without heater plugs as the air temp reaches 600C, ie above the flash point of diesel (around 500C), during the compression cycle. However, if the engine is cold then the heat dissapates quickly into the cylinder walls/piston etc so the engine doesn't burn very efficiently (producing white smoke) . It doesn't take long to get the temperature up so the engine will run and will only take a few cycles to get the temperature stable enough to tick over.

Probably, in your case, the engine needs oil flow which requires several seconds of cranking/turning over before it gets up to pressure and is pumped around the engine. I do not think it is anything to do with the heater plugs or their effect on the diesel.
 
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It may well be that as the contacts of the cables warm up as you turn the engine over the connection is improved because of expansion and even some arcing [ small within the contact] and so engine turns faster. As miktdish says clean all contacts. Just done this on my unstarted for several years 2a, now spinning well.
 
miktdish said:
Heater plugs heat the air in the cylinder so that when it gets compressed it exceeds the ignition point of the diesel you are injecting in. It warms everything really not only the diesel that is injected into the cylinder. Diesels will typically start without heater plugs as the air temp reaches 600C ie above the flash point of diesel (around 500C) during the compression cycle. However, if the engine is cold then the heat dissapates quickly into the cylinder walls/piston etc so the engine doesn't burn very efficiently. It doesn't take long to get the temperature up so the engine will run and will only take a few cycles to get the temperature stable enough to tick over.

Probably, in your case, the engine needs oil flow which requires several seconds of cranking/turning over before it gets up to pressure and is pumped around the engine. I do not think it is anything to do with the heater plugs or their effect on the diesel.
Click to expand...
On a direct injection engine, the heater plugs heat the air in the cylinder.
On an indirect injection engine, the heater plugs heat the air, and the metal, of the pre-combustion chambers.

Indirect injection don't usually start very well without heater plugs working, or a flame starter, as found on Perkins engines, which I think is a better system.
 
@miktdish19J is an indirect diesel engine as the fuel is injected into pre-combustion chambers.

Try cranking with the clutch pedal down. This removes some of the drag associated with the transmission. Engine oil viscosity also plays a part in cranking speed, especially when cold. Check you have a 15W40 engine oil as opposed to 20W50. You can even run 10W40 in winter, but you may burn and leak more.

Since I swapped my 19J for a 200 TDI, I have missed the old starting routine. 30 s of heat and plumes of clag. It's so characterful!
 
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