Part Time 4x4 Problem....Any ideas?

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[email protected]

Guest
Hi -

I've had my car (2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara) for a couple of years now
and hardly ever use the 4x4 since it's part time and I rarely drive it
in the snow. The times when I have used it in the snow, it totally
sucked! I thought it was my bald tires, so I recently got new tires.
This winter when trying the 4x4 in the snow, my husband and I realized
the 4x4 appears to not work at all! The 4x4 light has never come on
when engaged, and we always thought that was a burned out bulb.

Is it common for part-time 4x4 systems to fail? We bought this car
used and suspect that maybe the original owner used the part-time 4x4
on dry pavement (which I understand is a no-no) so I am thinking she
may have wrecked it.

We are getting it looked at later this week, but I just want to get an
idea of how much it may cost to get fixed. I suspect it may be
expensive. Any ideas how much? Of course, I am sure the cost of
repair could vary depending on the severity of the problem, but any
info I can have going in there would greatly help.

Thanks!
Paula

 
Its probably a relay or something of the sort that isnt sending the
correct signal. Do you use a lever to get into 4wd or a switch. Your
lever may be broken. What makes you suspect its not working? That is
the key!!
Beware, Im sure shops will have no problem charging you for a new
transfer case when the problem is probably much smaller.

Driving a 4x4 on dry pavement is not a no-no, it may wear a bit on
tires but thats it. Land Rovers and some Cruisers are full time 4wd,
ie, we are in 4wd all the time, we have a high and low range and can
lock in the center diff, but other than that, its never out of 4wd. The
open diffs make this possible which Im almost positive, what you Suz
has, I cant think of a single vehicle that comes stock with full
lockers in it.
--Corey

 
This car uses a lever/shifter to get into 4H or 4L.

There are a few reasons we suspect it's not working:

- 4x4 light/indicator on the dash doesn't come on
- no traction in the snow
- fishtailing and back tires spinning in the snow while front tires
doing nothing

What is the price difference between fixing the lever vs. fixing the
transfer case?

Thanks!

Corey Shuman wrote:
> Its probably a relay or something of the sort that isnt sending the
> correct signal. Do you use a lever to get into 4wd or a switch. Your
> lever may be broken. What makes you suspect its not working? That is
> the key!!
> Beware, Im sure shops will have no problem charging you for a new
> transfer case when the problem is probably much smaller.
>
> Driving a 4x4 on dry pavement is not a no-no, it may wear a bit on
> tires but thats it. Land Rovers and some Cruisers are full time 4wd,
> ie, we are in 4wd all the time, we have a high and low range and can
> lock in the center diff, but other than that, its never out of 4wd. The
> open diffs make this possible which Im almost positive, what you Suz
> has, I cant think of a single vehicle that comes stock with full
> lockers in it.
> --Corey

 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This car uses a lever/shifter to get into 4H or 4L.
>
> There are a few reasons we suspect it's not working:
>
> - 4x4 light/indicator on the dash doesn't come on
> - no traction in the snow
> - fishtailing and back tires spinning in the snow while front tires
> doing nothing
>
> What is the price difference between fixing the lever vs. fixing the
> transfer case?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Corey Shuman wrote:
>> Its probably a relay or something of the sort that isnt sending the
>> correct signal. Do you use a lever to get into 4wd or a switch. Your
>> lever may be broken. What makes you suspect its not working? That is
>> the key!!
>> Beware, Im sure shops will have no problem charging you for a new
>> transfer case when the problem is probably much smaller.
>>
>> Driving a 4x4 on dry pavement is not a no-no, it may wear a bit on
>> tires but thats it. Land Rovers and some Cruisers are full time 4wd,
>> ie, we are in 4wd all the time, we have a high and low range and can
>> lock in the center diff, but other than that, its never out of 4wd. The
>> open diffs make this possible which Im almost positive, what you Suz
>> has, I cant think of a single vehicle that comes stock with full
>> lockers in it.
>> --Corey
>

I suspect it is just a linkage adjustment, get a repair manual it is an easy
thing to correct.

Coasty


 
Ive seen this on Rovers quite a bit because they dont use the off road
much. The lever binds up and then either breaks or doesnt move at all,
if it breaks, it moves like it should, just not connected to anything.
On the Rover it runs about $300 to have them put a new lever on. On the
other hand, if the transfer case needed to be replaced your up in the
$3500-4000. (Dont know what the cost is on the Suz. but Im sure you
could find a used one if you looked hard enough.
Now dont lay into me, its probably a stupid question, but, when
attempting to shift it into 4wd, are you
1. putting it in Neutral
2. just barely rolling (>5mph)
3. Shift into 4wd
4. put it back in Drive (1,2,3rd) whatever gear and slowly
accelerating?

Does it feel like the handle is doing anything when you shift it to4wd,
or does it feel disconnected (really free with a lot of play)
LMK... its difficult to troubleshoot over the internet, but it can be
done...
:)

 


[email protected] wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> I've had my car (2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara) for a couple of years now
> and hardly ever use the 4x4 since it's part time and I rarely drive it
> in the snow. The times when I have used it in the snow, it totally
> sucked! I thought it was my bald tires, so I recently got new tires.
> This winter when trying the 4x4 in the snow, my husband and I realized
> the 4x4 appears to not work at all! The 4x4 light has never come on
> when engaged, and we always thought that was a burned out bulb.
>
> Is it common for part-time 4x4 systems to fail? We bought this car
> used and suspect that maybe the original owner used the part-time 4x4
> on dry pavement (which I understand is a no-no) so I am thinking she
> may have wrecked it.
>
> We are getting it looked at later this week, but I just want to get an
> idea of how much it may cost to get fixed. I suspect it may be
> expensive. Any ideas how much? Of course, I am sure the cost of
> repair could vary depending on the severity of the problem, but any
> info I can have going in there would greatly help.
>
> Thanks!
> Paula

Do you have manual locking hubs, in the free mode?
If so and your 4x4 bulb is also broken ....
Don't know much about the Vitara drivetrain but maybe this could be it?
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 
"Corey Shuman" <[email protected]> writes in article <[email protected]> dated 5 Dec 2005 12:14:43 -0800:
>Its probably a relay or something of the sort that isnt sending the
>correct signal. Do you use a lever to get into 4wd or a switch. Your
>lever may be broken. What makes you suspect its not working? That is
>the key!!
>Beware, Im sure shops will have no problem charging you for a new
>transfer case when the problem is probably much smaller.
>
>Driving a 4x4 on dry pavement is not a no-no, it may wear a bit on
>tires but thats it. Land Rovers and some Cruisers are full time 4wd,
>ie, we are in 4wd all the time, we have a high and low range and can
>lock in the center diff, but other than that, its never out of 4wd. The
>open diffs make this possible which Im almost positive, what you Suz
>has, I cant think of a single vehicle that comes stock with full
>lockers in it.

Full-time 4WD (AWD) works differently. The cheap modern 4WD implementation
is 2WD until the computer detects a loss-of-traction, but the more expensive
AWD systems can actually spin 3 wheels and still provide power to the 4th.

Having the front and rear differentials locked together is a bad idea any
time you don't expect to slip, even if they are open diffs. When you go
through a turn, the front wheels have a lower turning radius than the rear
ones, so they need to go slower. Forcing them to turn at the same speed
(averaged between right and left, which is what each differential does) is
going to put extra wear on the tires, wheels, axles, differential, drive
shafts, and probably some other things I left out. Not to mention it screws
up the handling. The owners manuals all say not to do it.

For the OP's problem diagnosis, it sounds like it's not engaging. If you're
at all mechanically inclined, buy a Haynes or Chilton's book specific to
that model and go through some of their diagnostic steps before taking it to
the shop. Sorry I don't have any more specific tips.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
 
We're doing everything correct (as you have listed) when switching into
4wd (even referred to the owners manual just to be safe).

I think you're right when you state you should 'feel' the 4wd
engaging....we do not - that's why we did a test in the snow with me
outside of the car and my husband spinning the tires. With the 4wd
light being out, the lever feeling off and the front tires not seeming
to have any power, it's pretty obvious something is out of whack.

I have a feeling it's the lever (at least I hope it is). I sure hope
it's not the transfer case if it's that pricey to repair. Do the
transfer cases fail often on 4wds?

If it is the transfer case - is it an obvious thing to a mechanic? We
originally had this vehicle mechanically inspected before we bought it
two years ago and we have a feeling the 4wd has been non-operational
since then. We think the mechanic may have missed it.

Thanks again!
Paula

Corey Shuman wrote:
> Ive seen this on Rovers quite a bit because they dont use the off road
> much. The lever binds up and then either breaks or doesnt move at all,
> if it breaks, it moves like it should, just not connected to anything.
> On the Rover it runs about $300 to have them put a new lever on. On the
> other hand, if the transfer case needed to be replaced your up in the
> $3500-4000. (Dont know what the cost is on the Suz. but Im sure you
> could find a used one if you looked hard enough.
> Now dont lay into me, its probably a stupid question, but, when
> attempting to shift it into 4wd, are you
> 1. putting it in Neutral
> 2. just barely rolling (>5mph)
> 3. Shift into 4wd
> 4. put it back in Drive (1,2,3rd) whatever gear and slowly
> accelerating?
>
> Does it feel like the handle is doing anything when you shift it to4wd,
> or does it feel disconnected (really free with a lot of play)
> LMK... its difficult to troubleshoot over the internet, but it can be
> done...
> :)

 
On 5 Dec 2005 11:35:59 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Hi -
>
>I've had my car (2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara) for a couple of years now
>and hardly ever use the 4x4 since it's part time and I rarely drive it
>in the snow. The times when I have used it in the snow, it totally
>sucked! I thought it was my bald tires, so I recently got new tires.
>This winter when trying the 4x4 in the snow, my husband and I realized
>the 4x4 appears to not work at all! The 4x4 light has never come on
>when engaged, and we always thought that was a burned out bulb.
>
>Is it common for part-time 4x4 systems to fail? We bought this car
>used and suspect that maybe the original owner used the part-time 4x4
>on dry pavement (which I understand is a no-no) so I am thinking she
>may have wrecked it.
>
>We are getting it looked at later this week, but I just want to get an
>idea of how much it may cost to get fixed. I suspect it may be
>expensive. Any ideas how much? Of course, I am sure the cost of
>repair could vary depending on the severity of the problem, but any
>info I can have going in there would greatly help.
>
>Thanks!
>Paula


OK, your Vitara has two parts that have to work..... Locking hubs and
the transfer case.

Are your hubs the manual kind you turn yourself or the auto kind that
are supposed to lock when you shift into 4x4?

If manual, I'm assuming you did turn them. If auto, are you sure they
are locking? Auto hub failure is pretty common.

Driving in 4 wheel drive on dry pavement is a BAD idea, contrary to
another response. Yes, AWD vehicles can do it, but your Vitara isn't
one of them. Unless this was done and something in the frontend is
broken, I'd guess this isn't the issue.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
 
Chances are is not the transfer case. Unless the car has be driven
extensively off-road, the transfer case will not wear out. When you shift
into 4wd, the transfer case connects power to the front drive shaft, and
sends power to the front axel. However, during 2wd operation, just one of
the wheel is connected to the differential. A separate electric motor
compress air to about 5psi, and operates an air cylinder that connects the
other front wheel to the differential. Until the electric motor compress the
air and connects the other front wheel to the differential, you will still
not get 4wd. Chances are that the hose that the goes from the electric
compressor to the air cylinder is disconnected, or that the electric motor
is not turning.
With the key in ignition, but don't start the car, shift from 2wd to 4wd.
The pump should be on the passenger side on the lower corner of the
radiator. You should be able to hear the pump run.
If you jack up just one of the front wheel, turn the wheel while you engage
4wd. If the wheel is free to spin, then the problem is with the actuator,
which is much cheaper than transfer case.

Ben

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi -
>
> I've had my car (2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara) for a couple of years now
> and hardly ever use the 4x4 since it's part time and I rarely drive it
> in the snow. The times when I have used it in the snow, it totally
> sucked! I thought it was my bald tires, so I recently got new tires.
> This winter when trying the 4x4 in the snow, my husband and I realized
> the 4x4 appears to not work at all! The 4x4 light has never come on
> when engaged, and we always thought that was a burned out bulb.
>
> Is it common for part-time 4x4 systems to fail? We bought this car
> used and suspect that maybe the original owner used the part-time 4x4
> on dry pavement (which I understand is a no-no) so I am thinking she
> may have wrecked it.
>
> We are getting it looked at later this week, but I just want to get an
> idea of how much it may cost to get fixed. I suspect it may be
> expensive. Any ideas how much? Of course, I am sure the cost of
> repair could vary depending on the severity of the problem, but any
> info I can have going in there would greatly help.
>
> Thanks!
> Paula
>


 
It would take a lot to destroy your transfer case, especially with it
just being a commuter. Probably in the handle. Any decent mechanic
should be able to ascertain this.
BTW.. full time 4 wheel drive is not all wheel drive. Ford, Chevy and
Dodge have not been able to master this, however, Land Rover (of which
I have three) and Land Cruiser are full 4 wheel drive all the time.
They do this with open differentials which allows the axle to turn
"somewhat" independantly. in addition to this there is a center diff
which can be locked down and then with slight brake pressure you have
the same effect as a locker.
This among others is the reason I have been such a fan of the Rovers
since I discovered them. but thats off the subject.
Anyway, search out a independant 4wd shop, have them look it over, then
bring it to the dealer, see what the pricing differece is and how they
diagnose it. Keep us updated!!..

 
Corey Shuman wrote:
> It would take a lot to destroy your transfer case, especially with it
> just being a commuter. Probably in the handle. Any decent mechanic
> should be able to ascertain this.
> BTW.. full time 4 wheel drive is not all wheel drive. Ford, Chevy and
> Dodge have not been able to master this, however, Land Rover (of which
> I have three) and Land Cruiser are full 4 wheel drive all the time.
> They do this with open differentials which allows the axle to turn
> "somewhat" independantly. in addition to this there is a center diff
> which can be locked down and then with slight brake pressure you have
> the same effect as a locker.
> This among others is the reason I have been such a fan of the Rovers
> since I discovered them. but thats off the subject.
> Anyway, search out a independant 4wd shop, have them look it over, then
> bring it to the dealer, see what the pricing differece is and how they
> diagnose it. Keep us updated!!..
>


The blind leading the blind. Full time 4wd is ALL WHEEL DRIVE!!
Differentail can only dived torque and while it is true that when one
wheel slip that it can recive more HP (HP = torque x RPM /5252) but all
the wheels recive the same amount of torque as it can do nothing else.
Jeep used the Quadratrac ( I still have one) back then than had a
limited slip diff in the Tcase that could send more torque to one axle
than the other under certain conditions without being locked.

Also the NP203 is a tuff Tcase and biult like a anvil but it will fail
if not properly serviced with regular lube changes with the proper lube.

--

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
 
wrong again, read up on it, the Freelander is the only Land Rover that
offers AWD, the rest are 4 wheel drive. All wheel drive will slip down
to only one wheel getting the power, 4 wheel drive will split that to
the front and the rear.
The quadratrac was a poor attempt to imitate what Mercedes and Land
Rover were doing with the 4 wheel drive, never quite measured up or did
what it was supposed to.
Your explanation is great for all wheel drive, but not 4 wheel drive
with three active differentials.
The Rover has permanent 4WD. Therefore it needs this extra diff to
allow the front and rear axles to rotate at different speeds such as
when cornering. It does the same job as the axle diffs. With it out if
you lose traction on one wheel all the power goes to it and you stop.
With it in the other axle is still getting 50% of the power. You can
take this further and add difflocks to the axles, but this is a whole
new thread!
from LR
Range Rover, Defender and Discovery are the only vehicles in production
that currently offer permanent four-wheel drive, which ensures power
is sent to all four wheels continuously, whether you´re on-road or
off. Because there´s no need to switch between two-wheel and
four-wheel drive when conditions change, always remains sure-footed and
unstoppable.

I realize that a lot of people dont realize what is under the Rovers
and their only reference is what american cars have done, but do your
research, then go drive one, you will be nothing short of amazed. Even
if you go with Govt. ratings, figure that the US stopped using Jeeps in
the 80s. US is in bed with Humvee now but there are Rovers making thier
way into the fleets. Also, the govts of most African, Austrailian,
German, etc.. use Land Rovers as their vehicles of choice. Its not
because they are the same as everything else out there.

 
Corey Shuman wrote:
> wrong again, read up on it, the Freelander is the only Land Rover that
> offers AWD, the rest are 4 wheel drive. All wheel drive will slip down
> to only one wheel getting the power, 4 wheel drive will split that to
> the front and the rear.
> The quadratrac was a poor attempt to imitate what Mercedes and Land
> Rover were doing with the 4 wheel drive, never quite measured up or did
> what it was supposed to.
> Your explanation is great for all wheel drive, but not 4 wheel drive
> with three active differentials.
> The Rover has permanent 4WD. Therefore it needs this extra diff to
> allow the front and rear axles to rotate at different speeds such as
> when cornering. It does the same job as the axle diffs. With it out if
> you lose traction on one wheel all the power goes to it and you stop.
> With it in the other axle is still getting 50% of the power. You can
> take this further and add difflocks to the axles, but this is a whole
> new thread!
> from LR
> Range Rover, Defender and Discovery are the only vehicles in production
> that currently offer permanent four-wheel drive, which ensures power
> is sent to all four wheels continuously, whether you´re on-road or
> off. Because there´s no need to switch between two-wheel and
> four-wheel drive when conditions change, always remains sure-footed and
> unstoppable.
>
> I realize that a lot of people dont realize what is under the Rovers
> and their only reference is what american cars have done, but do your
> research, then go drive one, you will be nothing short of amazed. Even
> if you go with Govt. ratings, figure that the US stopped using Jeeps in
> the 80s. US is in bed with Humvee now but there are Rovers making thier
> way into the fleets. Also, the govts of most African, Austrailian,
> German, etc.. use Land Rovers as their vehicles of choice. Its not
> because they are the same as everything else out there.
>


Like I said the blind leading the blind as it is plain that you do not
understand how fulltime 4wd works. There are different flavors of it
(like posi in a axle) but diffs can only divid the torque all the time
if they are open in design and always provide the same TORQUE to every
wheel all the time.

--

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
 


Corey Shuman wrote:
> Land Rover (of which
> I have three) and Land Cruiser are full 4 wheel drive all the time.

Nope...maybe you own disco's or RR's but the first full time 4wd LR was
the Stage One, because of the V8. All models before are part-time 4wd.
Land-Cruiser it depends on the model as well.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 


Corey Shuman wrote:
>
> wrong again, read up on it, the Freelander is the only Land Rover that
> offers AWD, the rest are 4 wheel drive. All wheel drive will slip down
> to only one wheel getting the power, 4 wheel drive will split that to
> the front and the rear

Don't think so.....
Erik-Jan.
 


TheSnoMan wrote:
> but diffs can only divid the torque all the time
> if they are open in design and always provide the same TORQUE to every
> wheel


....when driving in a straight line on tarmac or so.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 
Erik- expound, please, because this is what I have heard (and seen) on
Rangies and Discos, and the wifes hippo, when pressed, will only get
spin on the wheel with the least amount of resistance. So what is the
"dont think so"?
As to the other, Im lost as to stage 1, do you mean Series1? I think
some of those are 6'ers, but not sure. Series are 4wd as far as I
know... but I dont own or know much about them so Im at a disadvantage.

Sno-Man- Im not trying to be rude, but I dont think you really
understand what the Rovers do or how they do it, having discussed the
Disco and Rangie with numerous mechanics and experimenting on lots of
trail rides Im pretty confident in my assessment. I would suggest
looking up how Rover does it, and not just reffering to what you have
seen in US vehicles.

 
Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:
>
> TheSnoMan wrote:
>
>>but diffs can only divid the torque all the time
>>if they are open in design and always provide the same TORQUE to every
>>wheel
>
>
>
> ....when driving in a straight line on tarmac or so.
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.

on in the mud orr snow or what have you. You are confused here. The
torque is the same on both outputs all the time. The RPM might be
different if there is wheel spin but the torque (they amount of twisting
effort placed on the drive shafts) will be the same because a open diff
by design can only divide torque equally. Where you are confussed is
that HP is basically torque times RPM so it is possible to send more HP
to one axle than the other because of a higher RPM on one drive shaft
but the torque must be the same.

--

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com
 
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