P38 2.5DSE starting problems

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J

jgreenwell

Member
Posts
96
Location
Durham
Hi all, well 2 weeks into my ownership I have my first problem. Since buying it, when starting she has always cranked over slowish and taken a while to fire up, usually better if you give it a couple of shots on the glow plugs beforehand.

Anyway yesterday I replaced the back 4 glow plugs, but ran out of time, and didnt get the two front ones (the most difficult to get to ones) done, and was going to do them today. Used her last night, no difference really, but still ran no problems.

This morning went to use her, and she wouldnt start, eventually after say 3 goes flattening the battery. Used the wifes car, came back and thought a simple jump start would get her going, but no joy. Even after charging her for a while still no start. Sometimes would turn over reasonably quickly, others dieing after a short while.

Will give her a charge with the mains charger for a while, but thought I would ask around on here too.

Kind regards
Jonathan
 
you will find that it is probably a number of small things all adding up to your non start problem. First off make sure you have the correct size battery and it is in good condition - sounds like it isnt, if in dought replace it, it not worth bothering with a duff one .Replace the last two glow plugs ( I hope you bought genuine ones ) Check for bubbles in the clear pipe that goes from the filter to the injection pump, and lastly check the fuel level. Is it at 1/4 tank or below ?
 
Cheers for the quick reply mate. I am not sure on the battery, PO said it was replaced a couple of years ago, but it could be knackered by now, its a decent size one, visually anyway, and Bosch too, so not a cheepo one. The glowplugs were not genuine ones, bought off ebay 20 quid all in, from a well known supplier. Fuel level is around 1/2 full, with no change in fuel since before she was working well. As for bubbles in the fuel line, I didnt check today, but I am sure I have seen some in there on a previous occasion. How can I resolve that??

Kind regards all
Jonathan
 
The reason I ask if they were genuine, is that I had someone demonstrate the difference between cheepies and gens. The genuine ones glowed red almost immediatley whereas the cheepies took much longer - there was a BIG difference. If you are getting air into the fuel sytem (bubbles in the clear line) I would start with replacing the leak-off pipes on the injectors. These become porous and let fuel leak back down the system sucking in air at the same time. Very cheap and easy job - worth doing anyway. Another place air gets in is the in-tank pump. The pick up tube cracks above the pump allowing air to get drawn in. This is why I ask about fuel level, if you keep it topped up this stops this happening. Finally, a worn FIP can cause bad starting, but try the above before going down that route. Keep us posted.
 
I will check the pipes between the injectors, and as you say, they look like a low cost replacement bit. Of the six plugs that I took out, 2 were knackered, didn’t check the new ones TBH, but I am hoping they are ok.

After replacing the rear 4 and having no effect, I replaced No.1, and tried her; she fired up, although still needing a good crank. I then replaced No.2 (the tricky to get to one) and no joy after that, but the battery was getting tired again.

Only had 9 volts when cranking, checked for drain with no ignition on etc, and it was negligible. Had power to the plugs, and was evident on the meter that they were switching off (couple of seconds after the dash light went out which was interesting).

Neighbour thought the starter could be on the way out, what with the slow cranking, or possibly a bad earth to the starter causing the slow crank. The starter was getting pretty warm, but no smoke.

Have left the battery on trickle charge overnight and will try it in the morning, when hopefully the battery will have some more life in it.
 
I had a very similar problem with my BMW when I bought it.
I found a bolt holding a cable on the starter motor loose, and try using a jump lead from the negetive of the battery to a part on the engine. If the starter motor spins up faster then this test will show you have a bad earth ;-) Solved my non starting problem, even after new plugs, filters etc..

Is your engine the same M51 as fitted to BMW's?
 
Yes I think its the same as fitted to the 525tds, but not 100% sure on this. I was going to check the earth that way with a jump lead, but the battery was knackered at this stage so thought I will give it a decent charge and try from there. Mind you, even when jumping it from the wifes Pug 307 diesel, it still didnt seem that decent, although it was just on tickover.

I dont want to go down the route of replacing parts willy nilly (simply as I cannot afford it), as for a decent battery you are looking at the thick end of £100, starter motor minimum £100 - £180, when I could be chasing the wrong bit.
 
Your correct its the 525tds and the 325tds also fitted into the Vauxhall omegas. Many people also convert the engine to work with vegetable oil.
Im in the same boat as not wanting to spen any more money buying this and that, so reverted to just getting my tools and taking things apart and checking them over.
Unfortunatly or more fortunatly i found my turbo was leaking a lot of oil, bunging up the inlet :-(

When you jump started the car did you have the negative on the engine or battery?

If you were to start again and look at these things.
Have some one turn the key in the ignition to the second turn, whilst they are doing this check the clear pipe from the fuel filter and watch for bubbles, and which way they go. Let us know what you see.

2nd check all the fuel leak off pipes for splits or leaks, even after taking them off the car will take a few turns to start up.

3rd try the jump lead on the battery negative to engine metal, make sure its a clean contact.

Whenever jump starting especially a diesel, make sure the other car is RPM at around 2500, turn you ignition on but dont start the car, wait untill the glow plug light is off and count to 5 then start engine. See if thats any better.
Hope some of this helps, I flatenned my battery so many times when i first got my car, glad i had my AA membership ;-)

One more thing, is it rubbish to start from cold or warm or just both?
 
As for the bubbles in the fuel lines, I have seen them before, not sure of their direction of flow though. But when cranking/running, would the bubbles not flow towards the injector pump, as the fuel is going this way too?? I am thinking though that when changing the glow plugs I have possible disturbed the little leak off pipes, maybe giving me an additional problem there.

When jumping, I had the neg on the battery terminal, not on the engine, so I guess if I had a bad earth to the starter say this would still be evident?

When I was jumping her, the wifes Pug was only on tickover, so nowhere near the 2500rpm you suggested, so I guess little charge going into the Range Rover battery.

I have found that its no different starting hot or cold. I have normally given it a couple of goes with the glow plug light, i.e switch on, waiting for the plug light going off, ignition key off then on again to make the glow plug light switch on again, repeating the process. This has up until now worked. But surely why do I need to do this, it wasnt like this new so why now??

One more thing, I took all 6 caps off the battery cell tops, and my neighbour peered down when I cranked her over. One cell gave off bubbles when the others didnt? Possilbly a knackered cell?

We will get there in the end folks, thanks for reading and advising
Jonathan
 
Just to keep you informed, after a full nights charging, I went out this morning to give her another go, but no joy. She turned over a few times but didnt start. But I would have thought that it was fast enough to start her, but after a couple of cranks the battery was almost dead again. Looks like the battery is on its way out :(

I have left it to charge all day whilst I am at work, and will try a decent earth to the starter tonight to eliminate that potential problem, and also another battery from my Dad's RRC and see if that makes a difference.

I was thinking this morning that could I have disturbed something when replacing the glow plugs that would cause it not to fire up? Maybe I have disturbed the fuel leak-off pipes and gained air into the system or something??
 
Tried tonight after a full days charge. Battery was showing around 12.7 volts, dropped to mid 9's when cranking, but was very slow to do so.

Measured voltage between battery positive terminal and earthed to engine, and voltage drop was neglidgable, indicating (i think??) that the earth is good between battery and chassis.

Earthed straight to engine from battery with jump lead, still no difference.

Noticed that the starter motor was smoking after a period of cranking??? I was sure there was a post on here regarding that but I cannot find it.

Removed the battery and was going to try my dad's from his RRC, just to eliminate that side of things, but when I connected it up, the imobiliser wouldnt switch off, read through book about reconfiguring key fob, but when turning the key to the left, and locking the car, the alarm was beeping once, loudly. Since it was around 10pm, the wife was going nuts saying I would be annoying neighbours and waking kids etc!! :)

Can anyone confirm the correct procedure for doing this?

The book says to start the process, key in lock and turn 4 times to the right, but do I have to lock the car first and then do 4, or just 4 straight off the belt?

Also I have noticed I have air in the fuel line, just after the filter, someone has put a one-way valve in the line, indicating problems prior to me getting it. I have also noticed diesel on one of the leak-off pipe braiding, so will investigate that too, also I have read that the in-tank pump can be problematic, and disconnecting the fuel line from the inlet side of the filter, and switching the ignition on to see if I get a squirt, so I will try this after I sort the imobiliser :)

Oh the joys

Kind regards
Jonathan
 
It would seem the battery is indeed not very well. I think you need to address that problem first. If you have signs of diesel on the leak off pipes, these are definately gone aswell, change these aswell. Next, take off the fuel filter and top it up with fresh diesel - just to make sure its full. Then give it another go - I am sure some people will throw their hands in the air and shout at my next suggestion, but try a little squirt of Easy Start in the inlet while it is cranking over. DONT squirt then crank. This will clear out any old fuel and spin the engine and pump over nice and quick. Look here for tips on the alarm
 
Hi Rewmer

I will try toppng the filter up with fuel and see how it goes from there, The other day I removed the cap, and underneath there was a little circuit board, not sure what thats for, so left well alone!! I also undid the tap at the bottom and let some diesel drain out, to see if I had any water in there, but there was none.

Indeed the leak-off pipes will get replaced, a low cost job. Any ideas on the in-tank pump, or why the starter would be smoking after a little cranking? I think I will whip the starter off and have a look at brushes/windings etc.

Just another thought, other diesel owners, how does yours start?? Just one shot on the plugs, turn over quickly and fire up in a short space of time, hot or cold, or does it take a bit more effort??

Kind regards
Jonathan
 
If you have a low voltage at the battery the current draw from the starter will be higher which = more heat - I cant remember the equation, but its why electricity is transmitted at 1000s of volts over power lines. Try a good battery before stripping down. If everything is working as it should, it will start on the button hot or cold.
 
Having had experience with non starting RR diesels. I can advise you to check leak off pipes and replace with good quality stuff not the three quid a meter rubbish thats so flimsy its almost impossible to fit. A good battery is essential. Jump starting can in also create a problem where the BECM unit goes out of scync with the FIP and no amount of crankin will start it . This will require a visit to or from someone with dedicated LR software .
 
In reply to how do others start - mine cranks quickly for approx 3 seconds and starts fine - If your battery went very low and you tried to start it you may have lost the code in the BECM and need test book to reset it.. only takes a couple of minutes to do but costs a call out hopefully from a reasonable independant. The tell tale for this is no smoke at all from the exhaust went cranking, if there is any fuel being injected but the pots too cold or the cranking isn't quick enough you will get a little smoke from the half burnt/unburnt diesel, which points to starter/Battery/heater plugs etc.. Hope this helps...
 
Well another night of trial and no joy :( I have done the following tonight:

Replaced the leak-off pipes with new decent rubber ones, including the long one that goes back to the FIP.

I also, on the way home from work, called into a local Halfords, and got (borrowed, taking it back tomorrow when I can order one from motorfactors for considerably less;)) a new battery, fitted this, and although turned over better, didnt start the car.

Cranked a few times to try and bleed the system but nothing. A few times it sounded like it was trying, but nothing.

I have noticed that I have an air bubble, and a little foaming around where the feed pipe exits the fuel filter, could the FIP be trying to draw through here? But why is/would the filter be full?? Blocked?? There is a non-return valve between the filter and FIP, but there doesnt look like there is fuel between the NRV and the FIP, or if there was, not much.

I removed the fuel filter and this was full of fuel. With the filter removed, I turned the ignition on, and there was no fuel coming out of the fuel filter housing, also when cranking there was no fuel coming out of the housing (which would go into the filter if it was attached). Should there be??? If the in-tank pump wasnt working, or had just packed in, and I had a load of air in the lines, would the FIP still draw fuel through?

Thanks for sticking with me on this one folks, its sending me around the bend.

Jonathan
 
Mmm, looks like you may need to investigate the lift pump then. Start with the inertia cut off switch, fuses and then try a direct feed to the pump to see if its pumping.
 
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