No more Llama events at Ironbridge!

Below is a copy of a letter i handed out today to participants after my
event held at the Ironbridge site in Telford:

" It is with regret that i have to inform you that after 12 years of using
this site, Llama 4x4 will no longer be organising or associated to any
offroad events staged at this venue.

The direction certain aspects of the events have taken is not in keeping
with our policies or aims for organising offroad events. Circumstances have
taken the control of these aspects away from us leaving no alternative but
to lose these dates from our calendar.

This decision was not taken lightly but has been made with confidence that
it will be to benefit of our events and consequently your enjoyment of them.

Many thanks for your custom over the last few months and years and i look
forward to your support at events in the future. "


The letter ended with a contact number to enquire about our events /
services ( 01938.850382 ).

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter

David
LLAMA 4x4

What's the story behind this David?


"David_LLAMA 4x4" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Below is a copy of a letter i handed out today to participants after my
> event held at the Ironbridge site in Telford:
>
> " It is with regret that i have to inform you that after 12 years of using
> this site, Llama 4x4 will no longer be organising or associated to any
> offroad events staged at this venue.
>
> The direction certain aspects of the events have taken is not in keeping
> with our policies or aims for organising offroad events. Circumstances
have
> taken the control of these aspects away from us leaving no alternative but
> to lose these dates from our calendar.
>
> This decision was not taken lightly but has been made with confidence
that
> it will be to benefit of our events and consequently your enjoyment of
them.
>
> Many thanks for your custom over the last few months and years and i look
> forward to your support at events in the future. "
>
>
> The letter ended with a contact number to enquire about our events /
> services ( 01938.850382 ).
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read this letter
>
> David
> LLAMA 4x4
>
>

"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What's the story behind this David?
>
>
> "David_LLAMA 4x4" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Below is a copy of a letter i handed out today to participants after my
> > event held at the Ironbridge site in Telford:
> >
> > " It is with regret that i have to inform you that after 12 years of
using
> > this site, Llama 4x4 will no longer be organising or associated to any
> > offroad events staged at this venue.
> >
> > The direction certain aspects of the events have taken is not in
keeping
> > with our policies or aims for organising offroad events. Circumstances
> have
> > taken the control of these aspects away from us leaving no alternative
but
> > to lose these dates from our calendar.
> >
> > This decision was not taken lightly but has been made with confidence
> that
> > it will be to benefit of our events and consequently your enjoyment of
> them.
> >
> > Many thanks for your custom over the last few months and years and i
look
> > forward to your support at events in the future. "
> >
> >
> > The letter ended with a contact number to enquire about our events /
> > services ( 01938.850382 ).
> >
> > Thank you for taking the time to read this letter
> >
> > David
> > LLAMA 4x4
> >
> >
>
>
It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....

There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a head....

Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice as
much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs. This
is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having to
pay too much for what they are getting.

This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
properly anyway!
My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where
the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner
seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing their
revenue.
My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there
was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am
prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in
the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to
be associated to that style of event.

I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least I
will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

David
LLAMA 4x4

"David_LLAMA 4x4" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > What's the story behind this David?
> >

> It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....
>
> There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a
head....
>
> Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
> much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
> price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
> Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice
as
> much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs.
This
> is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having
to
> pay too much for what they are getting.
>
> This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
> and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
> If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
> would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
> wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
> as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
> want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
> properly anyway!
> My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where
> the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner
> seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing
their
> revenue.
> My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there
> was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am
> prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in
> the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to
> be associated to that style of event.
>
> I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least
I
> will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
> associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
> cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

>
> David
> LLAMA 4x4
>

Ah well I shall miss it. I would probably fall into the muppet camp but make
no apology for it! I actually hadn't been for a while since I've actually
become more risk averse over time and no longer consider a set of hoodsticks
and a wooly hat to be adequate safety equipment. I'm not sure that there
still isn't an argument for consenting adults to be able to choose their own
level of risk though - although tearing about endangering others is another
matter.

My fondest memories of Ironbrige will probably be the Fiat Pandas, Ladas and
other scrap metal that had one last glorious offroad outing. Oh - and
pulling the front bumper off a Range Rover attempting a recovery.

I'm not to sure how you define offroading or what 'doing it properly' means.
But I have a horrible feeling it involves a lot of money!

Good luck anyway David,

Cheers,

Matt B

> pulling the front bumper off a Range Rover attempting a recovery.
>
> I'm not to sure how you define offroading or what 'doing it properly'
means.
>
Well for a start, using a bumper as a recovery point certainly ISN'T 'doing
it properly!

On Monday, in article <[email protected]>
[email protected] "David_LLAMA 4x4" wrote:

[snipped]

Thanks for the more complete explanation.

It does sound a little like some elements of the "pay 'n' play" days
I've been to up here, when the traffic on the course can start to
resemble the school run, though the local club does do safety
scrutineering.

But that is very much a "have fun" environment.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

David_LLAMA 4x4 posted:

> It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....
>
> There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a
> head....
>
> Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
> much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
> price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
> Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice
> as much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover
> costs. This is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with
> customers having to pay too much for what they are getting.

Is the Landowner trying to steal your customers and run open days in your
place ?

> This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
> and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
> If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
> would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
> wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
> as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
> want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
> properly anyway!

I think they come to every and any 'open' event .. but really this sounds a
bit like sour grapes. After all, what is 'off-roading' ? I started with a
wreck from the local auctions, unfit for the road, but driveable .. now I
wouldn't dream of it, but everyone has to start somewhere. Why not just
have an area where anyone can let rip 'no-holds-barred-noresponsibility
accepted' etc ?

> I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least
> I will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
> associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
> cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

Heheheh, we all have to work a bit ..

--
Paul ...

(8(|) ... Homer Rocks

On or around Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:57:02 +0100, "Paul - xxx"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>I think they come to every and any 'open' event .. but really this sounds a
>bit like sour grapes. After all, what is 'off-roading' ? I started with a
>wreck from the local auctions, unfit for the road, but driveable .. now I
>wouldn't dream of it, but everyone has to start somewhere. Why not just
>have an area where anyone can let rip 'no-holds-barred-noresponsibility
>accepted' etc ?
>

I suspect that some git would find a reason to either ban it or sue you in
spite of disclaimers. 's getting very difficult to have functional
disclaimers of responsibility. I suppose that if you have a written
disclaimer which the individuals sign, they'd have a job disputing it, but
you have to be careful of that thing about unreasonable contract terms. The
other possibility is that you have an arrangement where they don't
(officially) pay, and therefore you have no contract, even implied.

sadly, the off-road thing at Pontardawe seems to be defunct. Landowner can
get more from some bloody euro scheme for not farming, or some such crap.

In a way, I wish we still had the place we used to live in about 20 years
ago - 30 acres of land up a hillside, with bogs, slopes, ruts, the lot. I
could make a fookin' ace off-road site there, but it's 20 years too late,
buggrit. Have to have a word with sister's BF, I reckon he's got the
makings of an off-road site on his farm, and if suitably policed, it
shouldn't have too much impact on the farming side either.



--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Confidence: Before important work meetings, boost your confidence by
reading a few pages from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

Ah....Ponty.

Is the Folk Festival on this year?

--
Nelly

Austin Shackles posted:
> On or around Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:57:02 +0100, "Paul - xxx"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>> I think they come to every and any 'open' event .. but really this
>> sounds a bit like sour grapes. After all, what is 'off-roading' ? I
>> started with a wreck from the local auctions, unfit for the road, but
>> driveable .. now I wouldn't dream of it, but everyone has to start
>> somewhere. Why not just have an area where anyone can let rip
>> 'no-holds-barred-noresponsibility accepted' etc ?
>>
>
> I suspect that some git would find a reason to either ban it or sue you in
> spite of disclaimers. 's getting very difficult to have functional
> disclaimers of responsibility. I suppose that if you have a written
> disclaimer which the individuals sign, they'd have a job disputing it, but
> you have to be careful of that thing about unreasonable contract terms.

Yeah, same as we sign for when we race formally .. These are standard
terms absolving organisers of all responsibility for the users personal
injuries etc etc ..

> The other possibility is that you have an arrangement where they don't
> (officially) pay, and therefore you have no contract, even implied.

OK, four crates of Newcastle Brown and we can all go play on my sister's
farm .. but that's a bit flat. Though I guess that's what a JCB's for, like
they do just up t' road at Loversall ..

> sadly, the off-road thing at Pontardawe seems to be defunct. Landowner
> can get more from some bloody euro scheme for not farming, or some such
> crap.
>
> In a way, I wish we still had the place we used to live in about 20 years
> ago - 30 acres of land up a hillside, with bogs, slopes, ruts, the lot. I
> could make a fookin' ace off-road site there, but it's 20 years too late,
> buggrit. Have to have a word with sister's BF, I reckon he's got the
> makings of an off-road site on his farm, and if suitably policed, it
> shouldn't have too much impact on the farming side either.

Heheheh, I sense a hastily concocted plan forming ..

--
Paul ...

(8(|) ... Homer Rocks

Big problem is that despite signing a disclaimer you can still do whatever
you have signed to say that you won't - ie. you can still sue even if you
sign a disclaimer.

I would suggest that the landowner is after my custom.

The other thing I said was that I did not to be associated to such
behaviour. I am not saying that it should not happe, I am just saying that
as both David the offroader and david of Llama 4x4 I do not wish to be
associated to it !!

David
LLAMA 4x4

"Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:rwjxc.799$ud5.244@newsfe4-gui...
> Austin Shackles posted:
> > On or around Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:57:02 +0100, "Paul - xxx"
> > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >
> >>
> >> I think they come to every and any 'open' event .. but really this
> >> sounds a bit like sour grapes. After all, what is 'off-roading' ? I
> >> started with a wreck from the local auctions, unfit for the road, but
> >> driveable .. now I wouldn't dream of it, but everyone has to start
> >> somewhere. Why not just have an area where anyone can let rip
> >> 'no-holds-barred-noresponsibility accepted' etc ?
> >>
> >
> > I suspect that some git would find a reason to either ban it or sue you
in
> > spite of disclaimers. 's getting very difficult to have functional
> > disclaimers of responsibility. I suppose that if you have a written
> > disclaimer which the individuals sign, they'd have a job disputing it,
but
> > you have to be careful of that thing about unreasonable contract terms.
>
> Yeah, same as we sign for when we race formally .. These are standard
> terms absolving organisers of all responsibility for the users personal
> injuries etc etc ..
>
> > The other possibility is that you have an arrangement where they don't
> > (officially) pay, and therefore you have no contract, even implied.
>
> OK, four crates of Newcastle Brown and we can all go play on my sister's
> farm .. but that's a bit flat. Though I guess that's what a JCB's for,
like
> they do just up t' road at Loversall ..
>
> > sadly, the off-road thing at Pontardawe seems to be defunct. Landowner
> > can get more from some bloody euro scheme for not farming, or some such
> > crap.
> >
> > In a way, I wish we still had the place we used to live in about 20
years
> > ago - 30 acres of land up a hillside, with bogs, slopes, ruts, the lot.
I
> > could make a fookin' ace off-road site there, but it's 20 years too
late,
> > buggrit. Have to have a word with sister's BF, I reckon he's got the
> > makings of an off-road site on his farm, and if suitably policed, it
> > shouldn't have too much impact on the farming side either.
>
> Heheheh, I sense a hastily concocted plan forming ..
>
> --
> Paul ...
>
> (8(|) ... Homer Rocks
>
>

> It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....
>
> There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a head....
>
> Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
> much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
> price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
> Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice as
> much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs. This
> is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having to
> pay too much for what they are getting.
>
> This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
> and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
> If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
> would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
> wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
> as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
> want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
> properly anyway!
> My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where
> the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner
> seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing their
> revenue.
> My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there
> was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am
> prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in
> the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to
> be associated to that style of event.
>
> I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least I
> will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
> associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
> cheap alternative to Alton towers!!
>
> David
> LLAMA 4x4

Sorry to hear it David, I had never quite made it to one of these
events although I know the site very well having used it for outdoor
development and corporate events. I'd been hoping to make it
eventually . . .

Frankly, from your description, I think you are well out of it.
Without a coherent set of policies and implementation and a clear
authority for control of the event I think you were heading for
trouble. Not intentionally . . . but it would have come. Part of the
firm I work for consults in leisure site safety and we come across
this kind of situation frequently. Not only with off-road driving but
with steam fairs, clay pigeon shooting, quads and buggies - the lot!

When responsibility and authority are split there is often a messy
court case at the end! I presume you had the necessary measures in
place to have the site exempt from the Road Traffic Acts? Assuming
that elementary precaution and assuming you were the nominated
'Organiser' on the insurances the landowner was putting himself in a
very exposed position overriding your control unless he / she had been
nominated the 'Organiser' leaving you as what . . . 'Chief marshal?'.

Did you not have sufficient marshals to manage the gate and check
vehicles and licenses yourself?

I visited Lee James's 'Open Day' last month and was mega impressed.
The site owner there (well, Leaseholder I think) had got together with
him to make sure they were both covered and that lots of fun could be
had with minimal risk to life and limb.

Regrettably I think most 'play day' type events are going to be simply
closed down over the next couple of years caught in a 'pincer' as the
HSE and the Police apply the H&S and RTAs and insurers (there are only
two active underwriters in this field in any case) hike the premiums
or simply refuse cover. It is already hitting many commercial
operators and clubs.

Anyway, thanks for your enthusiasm and for trying . . . I see someone
had hinted that your 'proper way' was expensive. Well, the problem
with 'cheap' is that all the costs are loaded onto the individual or
the family of the 'next one' to suffer a preventable mishap. I'm sure
your risk appraisal, vehicle and site inspections would have been
adequate to prevent happenings like that around a year ago, I think,
when a mans knees were wrecked by a fallen sheep fence obscured by
long grass and mud that a vehicle travelling too fast snagged and
dragged . . .

By the way, If matey there is operating a dangerous event and
especially if he is doing it without the cover of your insurance I
hope you have reported your suspicions to the H&S Inspectorate?

Good luck in your next ventures! Lurch

> >
> It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....
>
> There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a head....
>
> Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
> much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
> price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
> Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice as
> much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs. This
> is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having to
> pay too much for what they are getting.
>
> This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
> and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
> If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
> would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
> wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
> as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
> want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
> properly anyway!
> My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where
> the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner
> seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing their
> revenue.
> My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there
> was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am
> prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in
> the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to
> be associated to that style of event.
>
> I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least I
> will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
> associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
> cheap alternative to Alton towers!!
>
> David
> LLAMA 4x4


Sorry to hear it David, I had never quite made it to one of these
events although I know the site very well having used it for outdoor
development and corporate events. I'd been hoping to make it
eventually . . .

Frankly, from your description, I think you are well out of it.
Without a coherent set of policies and implementation and a clear
authority for control of the event I think you were heading for
trouble. Not intentionally . . . but it would have come. Part of the
firm I work for consults in leisure site safety and we come across
this kind of situation frequently. Not only with off-road driving but
with steam fairs, clay pigeon shooting, quads and buggies - the lot!

When responsibility and authority are split there is often a messy
court case at the end! I presume you had the necessary measures in
place to have the site exempt from the Road Traffic Acts? Assuming
that elementary precaution and assuming you were the nominated
'Organiser' on the insurances the landowner was putting himself in a
very exposed position overriding your control unless he / she had been
nominated the 'Organiser' leaving you as what . . . 'Chief marshal?'.

Did you not have sufficient marshals to manage the gate and check
vehicles and licenses yourself?

I visited Lee James's 'Open Day' last month and was mega impressed.
The site owner there (well, Leaseholder I think) had got together with
him to make sure they were both covered and that lots of fun could be
had with minimal risk to life and limb.

Regrettably I think most 'play day' type events are going to be simply
closed down over the next couple of years caught in a 'pincer' as the
HSE and the Police apply the H&S and RTAs and insurers (there are only
two active underwriters in this field in any case) hike the premiums
or simply refuse cover. It is already hitting many commercial
operators and clubs.

Anyway, thanks for your enthusiasm and for trying . . . I see someone
had hinted that your 'proper way' was expensive. Well, the problem
with 'cheap' is that all the costs are loaded onto the individual or
the family of the 'next one' to suffer a preventable mishap. I'm sure
your risk appraisal, vehicle and site inspections would have been
adequate to prevent happenings like that around a year ago, I think,
when a mans knees were wrecked by a fallen sheep fence obscured by
long grass and mud that a vehicle travelling too fast snagged and
dragged . . .

By the way, If matey there is operating a dangerous event and
especially if he is doing it without the cover of your insurance I
hope you have reported your suspicions to the H&S Inspectorate?

Good luck in your next ventures! Lurch

David_LLAMA 4x4 posted:
> Big problem is that despite signing a disclaimer you can still do whatever
> you have signed to say that you won't - ie. you can still sue even if you
> sign a disclaimer.
>
> I would suggest that the landowner is after my custom.
>
> The other thing I said was that I did not to be associated to such
> behaviour. I am not saying that it should not happe, I am just saying that
> as both David the offroader and david of Llama 4x4 I do not wish to be
> associated to it !!

Fair points, and good luck ..

--
Paul ...

(8(|) ... Homer Rocks

What's the story behind this David?


"David_LLAMA 4x4" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Below is a copy of a letter i handed out today to participants after my
> event held at the Ironbridge site in Telford:
>
> " It is with regret that i have to inform you that after 12 years of using
> this site, Llama 4x4 will no longer be organising or associated to any
> offroad events staged at this venue.
>
> The direction certain aspects of the events have taken is not in keeping
> with our policies or aims for organising offroad events. Circumstances
have
> taken the control of these aspects away from us leaving no alternative but
> to lose these dates from our calendar.
>
> This decision was not taken lightly but has been made with confidence
that
> it will be to benefit of our events and consequently your enjoyment of
them.
>
> Many thanks for your custom over the last few months and years and i look
> forward to your support at events in the future. "
>
>
> The letter ended with a contact number to enquire about our events /
> services ( 01938.850382 ).
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read this letter
>
> David
> LLAMA 4x4
>
>

"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What's the story behind this David?
>
>
> "David_LLAMA 4x4" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Below is a copy of a letter i handed out today to participants after my
> > event held at the Ironbridge site in Telford:
> >
> > " It is with regret that i have to inform you that after 12 years of
using
> > this site, Llama 4x4 will no longer be organising or associated to any
> > offroad events staged at this venue.
> >
> > The direction certain aspects of the events have taken is not in
keeping
> > with our policies or aims for organising offroad events. Circumstances
> have
> > taken the control of these aspects away from us leaving no alternative
but
> > to lose these dates from our calendar.
> >
> > This decision was not taken lightly but has been made with confidence
> that
> > it will be to benefit of our events and consequently your enjoyment of
> them.
> >
> > Many thanks for your custom over the last few months and years and i
look
> > forward to your support at events in the future. "
> >
> >
> > The letter ended with a contact number to enquire about our events /
> > services ( 01938.850382 ).
> >
> > Thank you for taking the time to read this letter
> >
> > David
> > LLAMA 4x4
> >
> >
>
>
It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....

There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a head....

Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice as
much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs. This
is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having to
pay too much for what they are getting.

This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
properly anyway!
My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where
the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner
seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing their
revenue.
My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there
was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am
prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in
the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to
be associated to that style of event.

I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least I
will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

David
LLAMA 4x4

"David_LLAMA 4x4" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Matt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > What's the story behind this David?
> >

> It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....
>
> There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a
head....
>
> Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
> much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
> price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
> Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice
as
> much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover costs.
This
> is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with customers having
to
> pay too much for what they are getting.
>
> This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
> and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
> If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
> would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
> wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
> as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
> want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
> properly anyway!
> My obvious route would be to banish them from the site but this is where
> the control is taken away from me. The ( IMHO ) over interfering landowner
> seems to want anything as long as they pay at the gate thus increasing
their
> revenue.
> My events were only mine if there was a problem - when all was well there
> was the landowner to claim all the glory..... this is not the way I am
> prepared to run 'my' business and so chose to walk away and be involved in
> the events no more. I do not want the rest of my business ( and hobby ) to
> be associated to that style of event.
>
> I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least
I
> will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
> associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
> cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

>
> David
> LLAMA 4x4
>

Ah well I shall miss it. I would probably fall into the muppet camp but make
no apology for it! I actually hadn't been for a while since I've actually
become more risk averse over time and no longer consider a set of hoodsticks
and a wooly hat to be adequate safety equipment. I'm not sure that there
still isn't an argument for consenting adults to be able to choose their own
level of risk though - although tearing about endangering others is another
matter.

My fondest memories of Ironbrige will probably be the Fiat Pandas, Ladas and
other scrap metal that had one last glorious offroad outing. Oh - and
pulling the front bumper off a Range Rover attempting a recovery.

I'm not to sure how you define offroading or what 'doing it properly' means.
But I have a horrible feeling it involves a lot of money!

Good luck anyway David,

Cheers,

Matt B

> pulling the front bumper off a Range Rover attempting a recovery.
>
> I'm not to sure how you define offroading or what 'doing it properly'
means.
>
Well for a start, using a bumper as a recovery point certainly ISN'T 'doing
it properly!

On Monday, in article <[email protected]>
[email protected] "David_LLAMA 4x4" wrote:

[snipped]

Thanks for the more complete explanation.

It does sound a little like some elements of the "pay 'n' play" days
I've been to up here, when the traffic on the course can start to
resemble the school run, though the local club does do safety
scrutineering.

But that is very much a "have fun" environment.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

David_LLAMA 4x4 posted:

> It all started to change when a new landowner purchased the land.....
>
> There have been many disagreements since but now it has come to a
> head....
>
> Part of the problem is that I feel that the site is simply not worth as
> much as I am being charged! The only way i can combat this is to put the
> price up but even that is interfered with by the landowner:
> Any increase I put on they want half of - that means I need to put twice
> as much on the entry fee as I need just to get what I need to cover
> costs. This is clearly the start of a vicious circle ending up with
> customers having to pay too much for what they are getting.

Is the Landowner trying to steal your customers and run open days in your
place ?

> This is not however the major issue, though the landowners quest for more
> and more money from the site is at the heart of it:
> If I am honest then probably as much as half of the customers are what I
> would call ' a bunch of muppets racing round a field in knackered old 4x4
> wrecks pulled out of the scrapyard for the day'. That is not what I define
> as offroading and as such do not want to be associated to it. Neither do I
> want the job of policing people who are not really interested in doing it
> properly anyway!

I think they come to every and any 'open' event .. but really this sounds a
bit like sour grapes. After all, what is 'off-roading' ? I started with a
wreck from the local auctions, unfit for the road, but driveable .. now I
wouldn't dream of it, but everyone has to start somewhere. Why not just
have an area where anyone can let rip 'no-holds-barred-noresponsibility
accepted' etc ?

> I will now have to work to replace the money i earned there but at least
> I will be happy that I am both in control of my own affairs and also only
> associated to real offroading, not just the use of knackered 4x4's as a
> cheap alternative to Alton towers!!

Heheheh, we all have to work a bit ..

--
Paul ...

(8(|) ... Homer Rocks