Mini-Van Conversions?

I was surfing on the GTRV yahoo group and saw a Dodge Caravan converted
into a full camper with a pop-top. I'm not a mini-van guy, but the
Toyota Sienna is a solid, fuel-efficient, AWD vehicle that I think
could potentially offer enough room for a beautiful camper conversion.
My questions: Does anyone know what it would take to put a pop-top roof
on say a 2004 model with a lofted bed for two (like the old VW
Westfalias)? Assuming you could actually do this, would it completely
void the warranty? I don't see any problem with reconfiguring the
innards - just take out the seats and bolt in whatever cabinets,
appliances, and seating you desire. Has anyone seen anything like this?

One more question is regarding financing a conversion. How do the banks
look at this?


My desire is for a 4x4/AWD "camper" (minimum - refridgerator, pantry
fold down bed, table) that gets great mileage. The GMC Safari has been
known to be converted - in fact the guys at GTRV are willing to build
me one custom. But the GMC Safari doesn't have the strongest reviews.
So I'm trying to use my imagination and be creative. Your thoughts...
Please!

OT: sort of re: great mileage. The way I look at it is like this ... you
could get yourself an older fully equipped vehicle for say 1/10 the cost of
a new $50,000 vehicle ... and that buys a lotta gas.

"Tyler Durden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was surfing on the GTRV yahoo group and saw a Dodge Caravan converted
> into a full camper with a pop-top. I'm not a mini-van guy, but the
> Toyota Sienna is a solid, fuel-efficient, AWD vehicle that I think
> could potentially offer enough room for a beautiful camper conversion.
> My questions: Does anyone know what it would take to put a pop-top roof
> on say a 2004 model with a lofted bed for two (like the old VW
> Westfalias)? Assuming you could actually do this, would it completely
> void the warranty? I don't see any problem with reconfiguring the
> innards - just take out the seats and bolt in whatever cabinets,
> appliances, and seating you desire. Has anyone seen anything like this?
>
> One more question is regarding financing a conversion. How do the banks
> look at this?
>
>
> My desire is for a 4x4/AWD "camper" (minimum - refridgerator, pantry
> fold down bed, table) that gets great mileage. The GMC Safari has been
> known to be converted - in fact the guys at GTRV are willing to build
> me one custom. But the GMC Safari doesn't have the strongest reviews.
> So I'm trying to use my imagination and be creative. Your thoughts...
> Please!
>

Thanks Bowgus, but part of the issue to me about good mileage is
principle.

If you want a conversion van, I would consider a safari or astro van,
specially if your going to mod the roof. These vehicles are still built on a
frame, built like a truck. not built as a uni-body where the structural
support of the roof is required as part of overall structural integrity.
You can get these vans in awd format so you have some ability to go where
you want, they also have more ground clearance then a caravan or others.
This way you can go more places that require more ground clearance. If you
really want something to go off the beaten path then I would consider a Jeep
YJ, TJ or even the older CJ. You can now buy small tent trailers that have
a raised suspension larger 16'' wheels and are more made to go off in the
bush then the standard common tent trailer.
http://www.starcraftrv.com/starcraft_folding_campers/starcraft_rt_series.htm
l

Snow...

"Tyler Durden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was surfing on the GTRV yahoo group and saw a Dodge Caravan converted
> into a full camper with a pop-top. I'm not a mini-van guy, but the
> Toyota Sienna is a solid, fuel-efficient, AWD vehicle that I think
> could potentially offer enough room for a beautiful camper conversion.
> My questions: Does anyone know what it would take to put a pop-top roof
> on say a 2004 model with a lofted bed for two (like the old VW
> Westfalias)? Assuming you could actually do this, would it completely
> void the warranty? I don't see any problem with reconfiguring the
> innards - just take out the seats and bolt in whatever cabinets,
> appliances, and seating you desire. Has anyone seen anything like this?
>
> One more question is regarding financing a conversion. How do the banks
> look at this?
>
>
> My desire is for a 4x4/AWD "camper" (minimum - refridgerator, pantry
> fold down bed, table) that gets great mileage. The GMC Safari has been
> known to be converted - in fact the guys at GTRV are willing to build
> me one custom. But the GMC Safari doesn't have the strongest reviews.
> So I'm trying to use my imagination and be creative. Your thoughts...
> Please!
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004

On 16 Dec 2004 19:50:47 -0800, "Tyler Durden"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>My desire is for a 4x4/AWD "camper" (minimum - refridgerator, pantry
>fold down bed, table) that gets great mileage. The GMC Safari has been
>known to be converted - in fact the guys at GTRV are willing to build
>me one custom. But the GMC Safari doesn't have the strongest reviews.
>So I'm trying to use my imagination and be creative. Your thoughts...
>Please!


Don't be so quick to dismiss the Astro/Safari vans.

While they do have their issues, they are a pretty reliable vehicle.
Engines and drivetrains will easily push past 150K miles and there are
many running around with over 250K miles. (Mine has 160K + miles with
one rearend rebuild, two starters and an alternator.)

The Astro/Safari is a more rugged vehicle if you plan on venturing off
the paved roads and parts are readily available and reasonably priced.

A lift kit is available from www.overlandvans.com to allow 31" tires
and a true 2-spd transfer case can be installed.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:42:25 -0500, "Snow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>If you want a conversion van, I would consider a safari or astro van,
>specially if your going to mod the roof. These vehicles are still built on a
>frame, built like a truck. not built as a uni-body where the structural
>support of the roof is required as part of overall structural integrity.
>You can get these vans in awd format so you have some ability to go where
>you want, they also have more ground clearance then a caravan or others.
>This way you can go more places that require more ground clearance.


I agree the Astro/Safari is a better choice than the more car-like
mini-vans, but I wanted to clear up a couple of things.

First, the Astro/Safari is a unibody vehicle. It does have a stout
front subframe, but the rest is unibody construction. That being
said, there are many running aroud with raised fiberglass tops and if
done right, the structural integrety is not affected. (If my
recollections are right, full size GM vans are also unibody as are
full size Dodges. Only Ford still offers a full frame under their
full size van.)

Ground clearance on the Astro/Safari is low and the oil pan and fuel
tank are the first things to scrape. They are higher than the
competition car-like vans, but still poor. As mentioned in another
post, www.overlandvans.com offers a lift kit for these vans to get 31"
tires under them which will do wonders for the ground clearance.

The AWD systems in these vans is amazing. (Well, I'm speaking from
experience with the pre-99 vans which had the viscous clutch units.
The newer ones use an electronic clutch which seems to work fine, but
I haven't personally experienced it.) My van has done amazingly well
in up to 14" of fresh snow. Ground clearance has always been my
obstacle. As mentioned in my other post, a true 2-speed transfer case
is a bolt in and only requires a hole in the floor for the shifter and
some driveshaft modifications.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion

Really, these beasts are unibody now too. I thought they were still
separate body mounted on the s10/s15 trucks frames. My 92 was a separate
body mounted on full truck frame...I think..

Snow...

"Matt Mead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:42:25 -0500, "Snow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >If you want a conversion van, I would consider a safari or astro van,
> >specially if your going to mod the roof. These vehicles are still built
on a
> >frame, built like a truck. not built as a uni-body where the structural
> >support of the roof is required as part of overall structural integrity.
> >You can get these vans in awd format so you have some ability to go where
> >you want, they also have more ground clearance then a caravan or others.
> >This way you can go more places that require more ground clearance.
>
>
> I agree the Astro/Safari is a better choice than the more car-like
> mini-vans, but I wanted to clear up a couple of things.
>
> First, the Astro/Safari is a unibody vehicle. It does have a stout
> front subframe, but the rest is unibody construction. That being
> said, there are many running aroud with raised fiberglass tops and if
> done right, the structural integrety is not affected. (If my
> recollections are right, full size GM vans are also unibody as are
> full size Dodges. Only Ford still offers a full frame under their
> full size van.)
>
> Ground clearance on the Astro/Safari is low and the oil pan and fuel
> tank are the first things to scrape. They are higher than the
> competition car-like vans, but still poor. As mentioned in another
> post, www.overlandvans.com offers a lift kit for these vans to get 31"
> tires under them which will do wonders for the ground clearance.
>
> The AWD systems in these vans is amazing. (Well, I'm speaking from
> experience with the pre-99 vans which had the viscous clutch units.
> The newer ones use an electronic clutch which seems to work fine, but
> I haven't personally experienced it.) My van has done amazingly well
> in up to 14" of fresh snow. Ground clearance has always been my
> obstacle. As mentioned in my other post, a true 2-speed transfer case
> is a bolt in and only requires a hole in the floor for the shifter and
> some driveshaft modifications.
>
> Matt
> 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
> 96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004

I've owned 3 Astro Vans. I still own two, one is
an AWD. Some good points have been made, to which
I'd like to add ...
=================================

Matt Mead wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:42:25 -0500, "Snow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>If you want a conversion van, I would consider a safari or astro van,
>>specially if your going to mod the roof. These vehicles are still built on a
>>frame, built like a truck. not built as a uni-body where the structural
>>support of the roof is required as part of overall structural integrity.
>>You can get these vans in awd format so you have some ability to go where
>>you want, they also have more ground clearance then a caravan or others.
>>This way you can go more places that require more ground clearance.
>
>
>
> I agree the Astro/Safari is a better choice than the more car-like
> mini-vans, but I wanted to clear up a couple of things.
>
> First, the Astro/Safari is a unibody vehicle. It does have a stout
> front subframe, but the rest is unibody construction. That being
> said, there are many running aroud with raised fiberglass tops and if
> done right, the structural integrety is not affected. (If my
> recollections are right, full size GM vans are also unibody as are
> full size Dodges. Only Ford still offers a full frame under their
> full size van.)
>
> Ground clearance on the Astro/Safari is low and the oil pan and fuel
> tank are the first things to scrape.
=================================
My '99 AWD has had a couple of 'incidents' while
roaming off road. In the first (in Canyon de
Chelly, AZ) I pinged a small rock in the center
berm that cracked the aluminum oil pan (yep, it's
front and center, the first thing for high center
objects to hit). I was able to get out of the
canyon on my own steam and buy 16 quarts of oil to
make the 100 miles (or so) to Gallup, NM. $800
later, I was on my way again.

I considered getting a skid plate built after
that, but there was no 'stock' item available.
About a hear later on my way to Chaco Canyon, NM
(& going faster than I should have) I went over a
rock that brought me down on a perfectly spaced
subsequent rock. This knocked a golf ball sized
hole in the pan and I had to shut 'er down right
away. After a $180 tow bill and another $600~700
repair, I was able to get under way again.

After getting back home, I searched out a
fabricator who was able to built up a great skid
plate to protect the oil pan and transfer case for
$600. It has mounts welded to the frame that allow
the plate to be unbolted if needed.
=================================
> They are higher than the
> competition car-like vans, but still poor. As mentioned in another
> post, www.overlandvans.com offers a lift kit for these vans to get 31"
> tires under them which will do wonders for the ground clearance.
=================================
I was able to get a 'lift' without a kit. I had a
spring shop re-arch the rear springs (the '99 has
steel springs, but '85 & my '94 have fiberglass
springs) and add a leaf. The shop then adjusted
the torsion bars at the front to level her out
(yes I then had the alignment done). I got about
3"~4" of lift in the process.
=================================
> The AWD systems in these vans is amazing. (Well, I'm speaking from
> experience with the pre-99 vans which had the viscous clutch units.
> The newer ones use an electronic clutch which seems to work fine, but
> I haven't personally experienced it.) My van has done amazingly well
> in up to 14" of fresh snow. Ground clearance has always been my
> obstacle. As mentioned in my other post, a true 2-speed transfer case
> is a bolt in and only requires a hole in the floor for the shifter and
> some driveshaft modifications.
=================================
=================================
>
> Matt
> 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
> 96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion
=================================
Matt, I looked at the overlandvans.com web site,
but was unable to find anything on the 2-speed
transfer case. What did I miss?

--
-- Jack --
=================================
Everything you see is temporary.
=================================
Clean Up Return Address To Reply
=================================
Poway, California (San Diego Co.)
N 32° 57' W 117° 04'
At 508' Elevation
=================================

Jack,

It being your third Astro and all, I assume you would reccomend them?
Consumer Reports doesn't exactly rave about them. They mention brakes,
fuel lines, and foot room as major detractors. I can overlook all of
these i'm pretty sure, but I'd like to be put at ease from guys like
you and Matt who seem to like them. I'm almost sold on building my
camper on this chassis. BTW, for those of you who found this string
because you were looking for a 4x4/AWD camper as well, the two places
I've found that do the conversions on the Astro/Safari are:
www.gtrv.com in BC, and Safari Condo out of Quebec
http://www.safaricondo.com/menueng.html. Mike at GTRV is really
personable and will work with you one on one. The Safari Condo guys
seem a little more established and offer 4 different camper conversions
of the Safari/Astro, but I think they're a little more expensive.

Now, assuming I go this route (like I say, I'm almost sold), do any of
you guys have suggestions on how to get the best fuel efficiency out of
the Safari/Astro AWD? My thoughts so far are: K&N air filter, touring
tires, and possibly an open exhaust system. Any word on a turbocharger?
Any other ideas? The point being that I will use the van primarily for
long road-trips, but insist on having the AWD for snow and the
occasional battered trail to the beach/woods.
Thanks for all the help!

Jonathan

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:27:30 -0500, "Snow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Really, these beasts are unibody now too. I thought they were still
>separate body mounted on the s10/s15 trucks frames. My 92 was a separate
>body mounted on full truck frame...I think..
>
>Snow...


Actually, there has been almost no chassis change for the entire run
of these vans. In fact, even the body restyle in 95 only consisted of
hood, front fenders and misc other front end pieces. (An easy,
stylish upgrade for the older vans is to add the 95+ pieces.) The
rest of the van has pretty much remained the same.

The Astro/Safari shares engines and trans with the S-series and
fullsize trucks. The rearend is the same size as the S-10, but has an
offset pumpkin, so it isn't interchangable. The early viscous AWD
T-case was shared with the Typhoon/Syclone. The later one I'm
guessing is shared with the Bravado. The front diff is dimensionally
the same as the S-series piece, but the AWD version doesn't offer the
vacuum disconnect. Many of the front suspension pieces are shared
with fullsize trucks including spindles, and upper and lower control
arms. (Not all years and all pieces are shared, but a good many of
them are.)

More info than you wanted to know......!

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:42:16 -0800, Jack Daynes
..
>=================================
>I was able to get a 'lift' without a kit. I had a
>spring shop re-arch the rear springs (the '99 has
>steel springs, but '85 & my '94 have fiberglass
>springs) and add a leaf. The shop then adjusted
>the torsion bars at the front to level her out
>(yes I then had the alignment done). I got about
>3"~4" of lift in the process.
>=================================


I believe 96 was the first year of steel springs. I guess the
fiberglass springs are OK if left alone, but break if you try and use
an add-a-leaf. I'm not sure if the later spings are a direct
replacement, but I know several people that have "upgraded".

The pre 96 torsion bars are also prone to breaking on high mileage
vehicles, but the later ones are much stronger and it is easy to
upgrade with new bars and adjusters.

The lift kit is basically a body lift, but seperates the front
subframe from the unibody. This approach still needs tweaking of the
torsion bars to get 31" tires under it, but the more body lift, the
less cranking needed. Overland doesn't offer a 3" kit (only 2" and
1"), but I would like to try a 3". One issue is the steering shaft
isn't long enough to accomodate a 3" lift and would have to be
replaced or lengthened. Other issues will creep up too, and it may be
more trouble than it is worth. (The fan shroud is already an issue
too.)

Sounds like you have accomplished quite a bit with your van just on
your own. Cool!



>Matt, I looked at the overlandvans.com web site,
>but was unable to find anything on the 2-speed
>transfer case. What did I miss?


Sorry, I should have mentioned there isn't a kit for this. The folks
who have done it have done it on their own.

have you visited the forum over at www.astrosafari.com? Several
lifted Astro/Safari van owners hang out there!

Hope to see you there.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion

On 17 Dec 2004 15:12:59 -0800, "Tyler Durden"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Jack,
>
>It being your third Astro and all, I assume you would reccomend them?
>Consumer Reports doesn't exactly rave about them. They mention brakes,
>fuel lines, and foot room as major detractors.


I think Consumer Report's biggest issue with them is they aren't
car-like! The brakes work fine, but granted, they system is
marginally sized. The parts are shared with the fullsize trucks, but
they are marginal in that application as well. I've done two brake
jobs in the 160K + miles I've driven my van. I've never had any type
of brake failure. I tow a 2-place snowmobile trailer or a pop-up
camper, both without brakes, and have never been worried about being
able to stop.

I don't know of any issue with the fuel lines. Fuel pumps fail, but
usually beyond 100K miles, and don't they on most vehicles? It is a
pain replacing since it is in the tank, and you have to drop it to
work on it. Late models pumps are pricey..... $300 to $500 plus
labor if you have a shop do it. (The whole "assembly" which includes
the sender is part of the later model pump replacement.)

Foot room is definately an issue. Driver's left foot can't be
stretched out and sits on the front wheel hump. The first time I
drove my van, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to live with. I
got used to it. Check it out yourself though! The front passenger
seat compartment feels a bit confining too. It's more "feel" than
anything since the engine is offset to the right, making the leg room
narrow. I've contemplated making brackets to move that seat back a
couple of inches.


> I can overlook all of
>these i'm pretty sure, but I'd like to be put at ease from guys like
>you and Matt who seem to like them. I'm almost sold on building my
>camper on this chassis. BTW, for those of you who found this string
>because you were looking for a 4x4/AWD camper as well, the two places
>I've found that do the conversions on the Astro/Safari are:
>www.gtrv.com in BC, and Safari Condo out of Quebec
>http://www.safaricondo.com/menueng.html. Mike at GTRV is really
>personable and will work with you one on one. The Safari Condo guys
>seem a little more established and offer 4 different camper conversions
>of the Safari/Astro, but I think they're a little more expensive.


Another option is:

http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/tiger-xl/index.htm


>
>Now, assuming I go this route (like I say, I'm almost sold), do any of
>you guys have suggestions on how to get the best fuel efficiency out of
>the Safari/Astro AWD? My thoughts so far are: K&N air filter, touring
>tires, and possibly an open exhaust system. Any word on a turbocharger?
>Any other ideas? The point being that I will use the van primarily for
>long road-trips, but insist on having the AWD for snow and the
>occasional battered trail to the beach/woods.
>Thanks for all the help!



Gas mileage will never be great. We see about 20 mpg on the highway
with ours and saw 21 when it was younger. Urban driving returns 16-17
mpg. Once you start adding weight though, that number can go nowhere
but down. A bigger issue would be with lift and/or bigger tires to
better utilize the off-road capability. I don't know what would
happen to the mileage, but I've never owned a 4x4 where it went up
with these types of changes!

I've done nothing to my van to try and improve mileage. There is an
aftermarket free flowing air filter kit available which certainly
wouldn't hurt. Also some aftermarket exhaust systems. I'd also
consider improving the spark through a hi-po system like MSD. I have
3.42 gears in mine which are the best for economy and still offer
decent performance. Bigger tires though would prefer 3.73s or 4.10s.

No turbo kits offered, but some company does make an interesting turbo
that mounts back toward the muffler and they have a "universal" kit.
No superchargers either. Biggest issue is a tight engine compartment.
But, a V-8 engine is an easy upgrade and most people who have made the
swap report great performance and the same or better gas mileage.
(It's on my to-do list.)

Come on over to the forum at www.astrosafari.com and do a bit of
reading. Ask some questions. You will get a better feel for the
issues these vans do have and it will help you decide if these vans
are right for you. (They aren't for everybody, I realize that.)

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion

I suppose ... but how about the big picture ... like ... the energy that
goes into the creation of that new vehicle? An oldie ... way more energy
goes into the making of the tin can that holds the peas ... than you get
from the peas themselves. My next vehicle in maybe 5-8 years (provided I can
keep my old jeep running) will be somekind of energy conservation technology
.... in other words, unlike you, I do not plan on buying another conventional
gas powered vehicle. And in fact, depending on where I move to when I retire
(2-5 year), I may not buy another vehicle period.


"Tyler Durden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks Bowgus, but part of the issue to me about good mileage is
> principle.
>

Actually the new GM full size vans are built on a frame. Dodge no longer
builds full sized vans. You can get the Mercedes Sprinter but all of
them I have driven are noisy and rough riding.

--
Steve Williams
Near Cooperstown NY

"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
courage to change the things we can,and wisdom to know the difference."
"Matt Mead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:42:25 -0500, "Snow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >If you want a conversion van, I would consider a safari or astro van,
> >specially if your going to mod the roof. These vehicles are still
built on a
> >frame, built like a truck. not built as a uni-body where the
structural
> >support of the roof is required as part of overall structural
integrity.
> >You can get these vans in awd format so you have some ability to go
where
> >you want, they also have more ground clearance then a caravan or
others.
> >This way you can go more places that require more ground clearance.
>
>
> I agree the Astro/Safari is a better choice than the more car-like
> mini-vans, but I wanted to clear up a couple of things.
>
> First, the Astro/Safari is a unibody vehicle. It does have a stout
> front subframe, but the rest is unibody construction. That being
> said, there are many running aroud with raised fiberglass tops and if
> done right, the structural integrety is not affected. (If my
> recollections are right, full size GM vans are also unibody as are
> full size Dodges. Only Ford still offers a full frame under their
> full size van.)
>
> Ground clearance on the Astro/Safari is low and the oil pan and fuel
> tank are the first things to scrape. They are higher than the
> competition car-like vans, but still poor. As mentioned in another
> post, www.overlandvans.com offers a lift kit for these vans to get 31"
> tires under them which will do wonders for the ground clearance.
>
> The AWD systems in these vans is amazing. (Well, I'm speaking from
> experience with the pre-99 vans which had the viscous clutch units.
> The newer ones use an electronic clutch which seems to work fine, but
> I haven't personally experienced it.) My van has done amazingly well
> in up to 14" of fresh snow. Ground clearance has always been my
> obstacle. As mentioned in my other post, a true 2-speed transfer case
> is a bolt in and only requires a hole in the floor for the shifter and
> some driveshaft modifications.
>
> Matt
> 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
> 96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion




-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

"Steve W." wrote:
>
> Dodge no longer
> builds full sized vans. You can get the Mercedes Sprinter but all of
> them I have driven are noisy and rough riding.

They may be, but I sure see a lot of them in my area.

Ed