Is my 3.0 litre engine "representative of the marque"?

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7

747JK

New Member
Posts
9
Dear forum

Firstly, if you think this post sounds familiar, then apologies - I have posted something similar in another LR forum online - simply as I am trying to access the widest possible pool of Discovery 4 drivers.

My car is January 2010 registered D4 HSE with the 3.0 litre TDV6 engine (no DPF). It has done 63k miles from new, and was fitted with a replacement engine in Jan/Feb 2011 after prolonged smoking issues during its first year which culminated in a complete engine failure in December 2010.

I wont bore you with the all the problems I've had this year, nor tell you how many times it has been to the dealers to have parts changed under its LR extended warranty. But what I will say (in an attempt to keep the story as short as possible), is that my car likes to smoke upon start-up. Now I appreciate older cars smoke, but I feel that a premium car less than 4 years old (which is over-serviced and runs only on BP or Shell diesel,) should not smoke like my car does when I start the engine. And remember, this second engine is less than 3 years old and has only covered 49k miles.

Here's a couple of videos to show what happens when I press 'Start' (no revs applied):

What happens when I start my car (filmed in October):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwbdIhrbUmE

What happens when I start my car (filmed in November):
"Representative of the marque" - YouTube

And some pics:

[IMG:640:371]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/747_kirki/Smoke1.jpg[/img]
[IMG:640:363]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/747_kirki/Smoke3.jpg[/img]

Land Rover have put in writing to me (after months of failed attempts to fix the problem) that this issue is "representative of the marque" and that "no further action will be taken".

But having not found a single other customer who's similarly aged D4 smokes like this, I'm struggling with the answer that it is truly "representative of the marque". So, if you drive a D4, and it does this, I'd be interested to hear from you.

Similarly, if you drive a D4 without a DPF, and it doesn't do this, I'd also be keen to know.

For the record, with the second engine fitted, my car did not smoke for more than two years (until April 2013). Nothing changed in how the car was being driven, serviced or fuelled since then, so why the smoke now? Was smoke-free ignition "representative of the marque" in March, and suddenly the smoke upon start-up become "representative" in April?

I look forward to hearing from other D4 owners.

With thanks, in advance.
 
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oh and you need to get your photo album sorted as rusty old listers are not my bag
 
as a side point if it isn't burning oil it must be over fuelling.

now not playing with anything as new I would want to check that temperature sensors read correctly and the actual airflow and temperature are within limits.

Also while a new engine may have been fitted the breathers etc are no doubt original.
 
If I were the OP I would be writing to LR Technical section and asking for the area technical inspector to check out the vehicle.

Sadly most LR dealers are utterly rubbish at diagnosing any problems with their product unless it jumps out of the diagnostic machine and slaps the 'technician' in the face.

DO NOT LET THIS DRIFT AWAY! There is a problem, it just needs finding.

I am not familiar with the start procedure on these more modern engines, do you still have to wait for the glowplug light to go out, before starting the motor?


David
 
thebiglad said:
If I were the OP I would be writing to LR Technical section and asking for the area technical inspector to check out the vehicle.
Click to expand...

Thanks, but of the 5 trips to my dealer this year, LR Technical attended on two visits. It is upon their second inspection, and written report they sent to their HQ, which Land Rover has decided this is "representative of the marque" and "no further action will be taken". All this, despite four earlier attempts to fix it at which parts were changed...

thebiglad said:
DO NOT LET THIS DRIFT AWAY! There is a problem, it just needs finding.
Click to expand...

Oh how I wished you worked at LR HQ!

And thanks janderson41, yes, the other forum to which I alluded was indeed Disco4.

Cheers
 
747JK said:
Thanks, but of the 5 trips to my dealer this year, LR Technical attended on two visits. It is upon their second inspection, and written report they sent to their HQ, which Land Rover has decided this is "representative of the marque" and "no further action will be taken". All this, despite four earlier attempts to fix it at which parts were changed...



Oh how I wished you worked at LR HQ!

And thanks janderson41, yes, the other forum to which I alluded was indeed Disco4.

Cheers
Click to expand...


I think we both know how to resolve this - it's just a matter of how far you are prepared to go, how much time you are prepared to commit?

Sadly large companies, especially automotive companies think they can give their customers any old load of pony crâp and we'll go away - WELL NO !

Embarrassment is your best weapon here - and I use the word weapon with true thought. If you really want 'justice' you will have to fight for it.

Bear in mind that Disc 4 is supposed to be a 'clean' vehicle ????? How can LR say this behaviour is within tolerances?

IMO you will need to develop a campaign, a strategy if you like, rather than just a 'stamping of feet'.

If the car didn't behave like this before and is doing so now, something has deteriorated?

Embarrass the local dealer; write directly to the LR MD; inundate the local media; write to the national media; spread the story far and wide across the internet etc etc etc. I don't have a pocket strategy for you but I hope the above gives at least food for thought.

The very best of luck to you,

Dave
 
thebiglad said:
I think we both know how to resolve this - it's just a matter of how far you are prepared to go, how much time you are prepared to commit?

Sadly large companies, especially automotive companies think they can give their customers any old load of pony crâp and we'll go away - WELL NO !

Embarrassment is your best weapon here - and I use the word weapon with true thought. If you really want 'justice' you will have to fight for it.

Bear in mind that Disc 4 is supposed to be a 'clean' vehicle ????? How can LR say this behaviour is within tolerances?

IMO you will need to develop a campaign, a strategy if you like, rather than just a 'stamping of feet'.

If the car didn't behave like this before and is doing so now, something has deteriorated?

Embarrass the local dealer; write directly to the LR MD; inundate the local media; write to the national media; spread the story far and wide across the internet etc etc etc. I don't have a pocket strategy for you but I hope the above gives at least food for thought.

The very best of luck to you,

Dave
Click to expand...

I agree with Dave,also worth a letter to some of the motoring mags,Autocar /Auto Express and such like
Good luck with whatever you do and I hope you get a result.
 
If it hasnt got a DPF (a cracked one would cause the smoke) then i would suggest it has something to do with the glow plug system :)

I thought all D4s had a DPF but some digging would suggest otherwise.

Does it smell 'fuelly' or like burnt oil?
 
Tuskenraider said:
If it hasnt got a DPF (a cracked one would cause the smoke) then i would suggest it has something to do with the glow plug system :)

I thought all D4s had a DPF but some digging would suggest otherwise.

Does it smell 'fuelly' or like burnt oil?
Click to expand...

Some 2010 MY D4s did not have DPFs; mine doesn't. My dealer tells me all later cars with a DPF would not suffer this issue.

They also tell me they have tested this on similar aged D4s without a DPF, and with similar mileage, and they all smoke on start-up like mine does (hence the "representative of the marque" comment by LR. But, if that is the case, I'm astounded I can't find all these D4 owners online saying their cars smoke the same... So far one owner on Disco4.com has told me his can smoke the same, but only in a certain low temperature bands. Mine has been doing this since April, even during the very hot summer. The temperature has seemingly made little difference.

I'm no expert on fume smells, but the smell upon start-up - if you catch a whiff of this smoke - is not nice. It reduced my wife to a coughing fit, and I got it in the neck for having started the engine before she'd got into the car and firmly shut her door! Seriously, it's not a nice smell.
 
747JK said:
Some 2010 MY D4s did not have DPFs; mine doesn't. My dealer tells me all later cars with a DPF would not suffer this issue.

They also tell me they have tested this on similar aged D4s without a DPF, and with similar mileage, and they all smoke on start-up like mine does (hence the "representative of the marque" comment by LR. But, if that is the case, I'm astounded I can't find all these D4 owners online saying their cars smoke the same... So far one owner on Disco4.com has told me his can smoke the same, but only in a certain low temperature bands. Mine has been doing this since April, even during the very hot summer. The temperature has seemingly made little difference.

I'm no expert on fume smells, but the smell upon start-up - if you catch a whiff of this smoke - is not nice. It reduced my wife to a coughing fit, and I got it in the neck for having started the engine before she'd got into the car and firmly shut her door! Seriously, it's not a nice smell.
Click to expand...


If the smell is that bad, why don't you have it analysed? Might help to diagnose the problem?


Call CSI Miami (or Cleckheaton) and they'll analyse it for you within the hour.

"25% CO²; 20% NOX. 10% baked beans; 5% cabbage; 3.7% brussel sprouts; 2.9% Brie; 2.2% sock;..................................."


Dave
 
Last edited:
Is it everytime you start or just on the first start of the day?

Showed the video to a calibrator at work and he says he has only seen smoking like that on a diesel when altitude testing suggesting it would be overfuelling. I wonder if you have an injector leaking and filling up a piston bowl.
 
Have you thought about adding 2stroke oil when filling up?
There is great controversy about this.
I had been putting 2SO into my old Disco1 for over a year and with 122k there was NO smoke at all.
Appreciate old fashioned engine against TDV6,
Suggest you ask on the Disco3/4 site about use of 2SO.
Or maybe not, at moment, with your ongoing argument with LR.
Worth checking out for future.>

Jim A
-----------------
2002 Disco 2 auto
1996 300Tdi auto(gone)
 
Tuskenraider said:
Is it everytime you start or just on the first start of the day?

Showed the video to a calibrator at work and he says he has only seen smoking like that on a diesel when altitude testing suggesting it would be overfuelling. I wonder if you have an injector leaking and filling up a piston bowl.
Click to expand...

It is guaranteed on the first start of the day, but it can also happen - sometimes - as little as two hours after the engine last fired. The longer you leave it between engine starts, the worse the problem seems to get. i.e. after two days, there's more smoke (typically) than after one day. I'm certainly not at any high altitude where I live!

Re: some of the other comments, I'm not familiar with who or what Cleckheaton are. Be good to know? The problem with having someone external analyse it is by the time I've driven to them, it would be less likely to smoke like it does without leaving the car there until the following morning - if they aren't very local to me, that certainly becomes a big headache...

And re: 2SO, I too am wary of adding something which the (modern) system is not expecting... OK, so it smokes terribly already, but I'd hate to damage the engine and for LR to tell me it was my own fault as I put an additive in which wasn't required...

Really appreciate all of your comments though. Anyone want to swap a trusty low-mileage Disco 2 for my smoke-machine? ;)
 
Here's an off the wall thought - smoking after being left standing for a period of time is usually valve stem seals.... oil leaks past the seals down the valves and into the ports behind the valve heads, it is then burned off over a period of a few minutes...
 
747JK said:
Re: some of the other comments, I'm not familiar with who or what Cleckheaton are. Be good to know? The problem with having someone external analyse it is by the time I've driven to them, it would be less likely to smoke like it does without leaving the car there until the following morning - if they aren't very local to me, that certainly becomes a big headache...
Click to expand...


Hi there, sorry to confuse you - it was an attempt at humour to lighten your load a little.

If you're not familiar with the range of CSI (Criminal Scientific Investigation or similar) programs on the television it backfired. There is CSI Miami, Manhattan, Las Vegas etc so I thought it might be amusing to have a branch of this auguste body in the small town of Cleckheaton in Yorkshire.

They have investigation techniques and computer systems that would tell you the problem on your car in seconds - it's still not working is it, I can see as I write this.


Oh well, better luck nice time Dave.
 
747JK said:
Dear forum

Firstly, if you think this post sounds familiar, then apologies - I have posted something similar in another LR forum online - simply as I am trying to access the widest possible pool of Discovery 4 drivers.

My car is January 2010 registered D4 HSE with the 3.0 litre TDV6 engine (no DPF). It has done 63k miles from new, and was fitted with a replacement engine in Jan/Feb 2011 after prolonged smoking issues during its first year which culminated in a complete engine failure in December 2010.

I wont bore you with the all the problems I've had this year, nor tell you how many times it has been to the dealers to have parts changed under its LR extended warranty. But what I will say (in an attempt to keep the story as short as possible), is that my car likes to smoke upon start-up. Now I appreciate older cars smoke, but I feel that a premium car less than 4 years old (which is over-serviced and runs only on BP or Shell diesel,) should not smoke like my car does when I start the engine. And remember, this second engine is less than 3 years old and has only covered 49k miles.

Here's a couple of videos to show what happens when I press 'Start' (no revs applied):

What happens when I start my car (filmed in October):
Land Rover say ths is "representative of the marque". - YouTube

What happens when I start my car (filmed in November):
"Representative of the marque" - YouTube

And some pics:

[IMG:640:371]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/747_kirki/Smoke1.jpg[/img]
[IMG:640:363]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/747_kirki/Smoke3.jpg[/img]

Land Rover have put in writing to me (after months of failed attempts to fix the problem) that this issue is "representative of the marque" and that "no further action will be taken".

But having not found a single other customer who's similarly aged D4 smokes like this, I'm struggling with the answer that it is truly "representative of the marque". So, if you drive a D4, and it does this, I'd be interested to hear from you.

Similarly, if you drive a D4 without a DPF, and it doesn't do this, I'd also be keen to know.

For the record, with the second engine fitted, my car did not smoke for more than two years (until April 2013). Nothing changed in how the car was being driven, serviced or fuelled since then, so why the smoke now? Was smoke-free ignition "representative of the marque" in March, and suddenly the smoke upon start-up become "representative" in April?

I look forward to hearing from other D4 owners.

With thanks, in advance.
Click to expand...


Morning 747JK,

I to have a 2010 discovery 4 3.0 HSE: i have had many problems with the car since purchasing the vehicle with just 19k on the clock. I too have a smoky engine on start up which is identical to yours. I'm unaware if it has a DPF I will check.

Having had a fair few issues I can say my dealer although once trying to mislay me has been fantastic. The quality of work however has been horrendous with the vehicle having to go back more than once due to the technicians breaking other parts whilst fixing the initial problem. That said it's all been done "eventually" properly and without any hesitation by LR or their warranty team.

Regarding the smoking I haven't actually brought this to there attention. My warranty runs out in march unless I choose to extend. I would prefer to sell but we shall see if funds permit a new vehicle after Christians.

My car;
2010 on a 10 plate
60 thousand miles (just under 57 I think)


Im now considering a trip to the dealer. The car also smokes (the same white ish smoke as yours) when accelerating hard. I have full main dealer service history as you do however I stick whatever fuel I find in mine. Mainly she'll but often Sainsbury's.

Cheers,

Glenn
 
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