Def 200tdi 11L engine, timing crank rotation issue...help?

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

Dear All, just installed flywheel, clutch, FIP & pulley, timing belt and tensioner - went to complete the 2x crank rotations for re-torquing tensioner and the crank will only turn ~90degs clockwise. Clearly I've done something wrong, this the install process

1. crank at tdc measured at woodruff to crank cover timing arrow + EP at full lift
2. locked flywheel at 6 o'clock with small slot & timing lift pin inserted/locked [the flywheel has two slots, the larger is positioned between 9-10 o'clock] [as per manual]
3. rechecked crank pulley - timing on mark
4. cam pulley on mark
5. FIP on mark and locking pin correctly set, then removed for crank rotation

Spoke with Richard Turner this afternoon and sent a few pics but thought I'd ask the "glorious collective" in case one of you has experienced the same. Interestingly, Richard thought the second flywheel slot should be at the 2 o'clock position where an early engine, but I said this would be determined by the crank-flywheel dowel location :. flywheel install is correct [small slot at 6 o'clock, larger slot between 9-10 o'clock]. The flywheel does have timing marks on edge of flywheel @ 1-2 o'clock

Have I been a numpty/had a grey haired Friday afternoon moment...?

All help greatly received...

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

here's some pics to help along...

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

and t'other end...

this last pic showing the timing marks top right...you have to look closely

jamesmartin · Jun 19, 2020

v8250 said:
Dear All, just installed flywheel, clutch, FIP & pulley, timing belt and tensioner - went to complete the 2x crank rotations for re-torquing tensioner and the crank will only turn ~90degs clockwise. Clearly I've done something wrong, this the install process

1. crank at tdc measured at woodruff to crank cover timing arrow + EP at full lift
2. locked flywheel at 6 o'clock with small slot & timing lift pin inserted/locked [the flywheel has two slots, the larger is positioned between 9-10 o'clock] [as per manual]
3. rechecked crank pulley - timing on mark
4. cam pulley on mark
5. FIP on mark and locking pin correctly set, then removed for crank rotation

Spoke with Richard Turner this afternoon and sent a few pics but thought I'd ask the "glorious collective" in case one of you has experienced the same. Interestingly, Richard thought the second flywheel slot should be at the 2 o'clock position where an early engine, but I said this would be determined by the crank-flywheel dowel location :. flywheel install is correct [small slot at 6 o'clock, larger slot between 9-10 o'clock]. The flywheel does have timing marks on edge of flywheel @ 1-2 o'clock

Have I been a numpty/had a grey haired Friday afternoon moment...?

All help greatly received...

how do you mean ep,exhaust peak is only for 2.5 na or td,tdi is tdc,so no4 valves on the rock no1 both closed,have you tried slackening tappets

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

As per pic both no1 are fully closed [rockers at full lift], that's why I'm scratching head - haven't slackened tappets yet as engine is rebuilt from Turner Eng. I guess next to do is to slacken all tappets...

jamesmartin · Jun 19, 2020

v8250 said:
and t'other end...
View attachment 212649
View attachment 212650
View attachment 212651
this last pic showing the timing marks top right...you have to look closely

those timing marks are of no use to you though they are injection point 13-14 degrees btdc

jamesmartin · Jun 19, 2020

so if you fit belt as is it wont do a full turn only 1/4

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

jamesmartin said:
so if you fit belt as is it wont do a full turn only 1/4

exactly, with all lined up...fit belt and crank will only turn 1/4 clockwise

jamesmartin · Jun 19, 2020

90 degrees is all pistons half up/down presumably with rear pin fully removed,if you turn crank to 90 degrees without belt does cam turn 360

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

90degs with lock pin removed, yes. let me check 90deg without belt, back in 5mins...

lynall · Jun 19, 2020

What thickness head gasket?

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

jamesmartin said:
if you turn crank to 90 degrees without belt does cam turn 360

no, but crank locked at just before 180degs this time - this where i'd rotated cam earlier to see if I could sync up the two

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

lynall said:
What thickness head gasket?

3 dot gasket...this was my thought earlier

lynall · Jun 19, 2020

v8250 said:
3 dot gasket...this was my thought earlier

Head or block skim?

New cam? Iirc the cam is the same for many of the lr 2.5 diesels?

jamesmartin · Jun 19, 2020

v8250 said:
no, but crank locked at just before 180degs this time - this where i'd rotated cam earlier to see if I could sync up the two

at 180 that tdc again for 2 and 3 so that could be valves, at 90 degrees crank, cam should do 360

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

Head only lightly skimmed and gas flowed. The cam will be the same for the 2.5d's. This is a Turner Eng unit and Richard and I had a good chat this afternoon...I'm quite relaxed over this, it's only an engine so there's a logical answer. Either I've done something silly, or their engine builder has.

It doesn't "feel" like an over skimmed head/block, have felt these before where crank is too "tight" on rotation. The engine builder would have decked block-piston-valve-head tolerance...I'm wondering if they've simply set up cam a'cock.

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

jamesmartin said:
at 180 that tdc again for 2 and 3 so that could be valves, at 90 degrees crank, cam should do 360

could valves be sticking...?

if this wasn't a newly built by other engine I'd be ripping head off this weekend and checking with dti, head back on and set rockers/valve clearances. but i dare not do this...

jamesmartin · Jun 19, 2020

v8250 said:
Head only lightly skimmed and gas flowed. The cam will be the same for the 2.5d's. This is a Turner Eng unit and Richard and I had a good chat this afternoon...I'm quite relaxed over this, it's only an engine so there's a logical answer. Either I've done something silly, or their engine builder has.

It doesn't "feel" like an over skimmed head/block, have felt these before where crank is too "tight" on rotation. The engine builder would have decked block-piston-valve-head tolerance...I'm wondering if they've simply set up cam a'cock.

cam has a key and if crank key is at 12 oclock no 4 valves are on the rock ie both partly open no 1 both fully shut so play in both rockers when cam mark is aligned,have you tried slackening the tappets

v8250 · Jun 19, 2020

jamesmartin said:
cam has a key and if crank key is at 12 oclock no 4 valves are on the rock ie both partly open no 1 both fully shut so play in both rockers when cam mark is aligned,have you tried slackening the tappets

no yet, i'll look at this after breakfast in morning. thank you for your help this evening

v8250 · Jun 20, 2020

Good news, thought about this overnight...this little dilemma even woke me at 2.47 this morning

Logically this is just a crank/cam out of phase, so slackened off rockers this morning and gently rotated cam and crank independently [crank by 90deg phases] til rotated crank back to tdc, cam one full rotation; they were out by 180degs

Refitted timing belt but slackened off the FIP in case this had a mechanical stop failure. Tightened up belt and the old girl now rotates 2x 360 at the crank with no mechanical resistance...

Now to reset valve clearances, remove timing belt, set up FIP, refit belt and torque up. If you don't hear from me all is still well...happy Saturday everyone...

Def 200tdi 11L engine, timing crank rotation issue...help?

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