Coolant in sump after headgasket

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burgerboy78

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Water in oil AFTER headgasket replacement
Good evening all, I recently replaced the head gasket on my 10p TD5 after I found the coolant to be pressurising and there was water usage and smoke from the exhaust. It was NOT overheating though.

When I removed the head I found the plastic head dowels had snapped which was to be expected. I replaced with metal dowels, 3 hole head gasket and new head bolts all from turner's. I had the head pressure checked and a light skim whilst the head was off at a very reputable local machine shop.

It was refitted following the correct procedure and tighten to the correct torqure and then done with the angle gauge. I changed the oil and both filters after it was done.

I've since done around 500 miles in it and it's done 2 header tanks of coolant. I figured this was strange considering it's recently had a new radiator also. I checked all the coolant pipes and found no leaks. Head tank is not pressuring, heater blows hot and it's been bless twice.

I checked the dipstick and found that the oil was above the full mark. I drained the oil and found it to be like chocolate milkshake. Clearly this is where my my topped up header tanks of coolant have been going.

Obviously I am extremely frustrated at this as I did things to the book and with decent quality parts. Engine only has 90k. Does anyone know of where it could be coming from? Common places. It seems to be drinking coolant at an alarming rate so wherever it is leaking it must be a pretty big "hole" so to speak.

Any help would be great
 
I thought about this, but if the oil cooler seals go does that not leak oil into the coolant and not coolant into the oil? Header tank is clean and there is no oil in the header tank.
 
Did you make sure you cleaned all of the head bolt holes in the block thoroughly. If you leave liquid in them, as you tighten them up the liquid has nowhere to go and you can crack the block.
 
burgerboy78 said:
When I removed the head I found the plastic head dowels had snapped which was to be expected. I replaced with metal dowels, 3 hole head gasket and new head bolts all from turner's.
Click to expand...
Some lucky guys neglected what LR engineers said in the attached TSB and nothing bad happened but i think that the bulletin was not made in vain, i highlighted the relevant paragraph.. the locating dowels have effect just untill the head is properly torqued down to keep the head straight and not let the gasket slip away after that they have no purpose cos once torqued the head or gasket are not supposed to move whatsoever so even if the dowels completely vanish it's irrelevant IMO... i'm affraid you managed to crack the 10P head with the steel dowels :(

i personally know a guy who relied on forum posts about the benefit of steel dowels rather than follow official documents and ended up with cracked head

Td5 dowels TSB.jpg
 
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I blow all the head bolt holes out so they were free from oil and water before I put the new bolts in.

I did check the original plastic dowels against the new steel and they were the same height and they weren't tight to go into the head or the block when I fitted them as I checked this also.

The steel dowels were purchased from turner's YLL500040.
 
sierrafery said:
what can i say? ... for me "... must not, under any circumstances, be fitted ... " means something else then, cos even being the same height while plastic can cede under torque, steel would not :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Even though it says this I have never heard of anyone having a problem with fitting steel dowels where plastic was originally used. Maybe it was just luck, but certainly none of the LR specialists I know have ever had a problem and they do say "cylinder head cracking may result", it is not a definite. Even Turner Engineering do not mention this (https://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/yll500040-head-locating-dowel-c2x20634552)

Update: One of my workmates has contacted Turner Engineering who specifically say NOT to use plastic dowels on any TD5 head as it causes "head shuffle". They clearly have never come across any head cracking caused by steel dowels.
 
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I get what you're saying and I can see why land rover would have put out the bulletin.
However I did speak to Turner also and they said to use the metal ones. Also, reading many a forum post suggests also to use the metal ones.

If the head has now cracked then surely oil pressure is higher than coolant pressur so it would be leaking oil into the coolant?

If you look at where dowels actually sit then it would have had to have cracked a massive amount to join a water and oil gallery. Are either of yours pre 2002 10p engines and have either of you had the head of of yours?

Im going to take the head back off to see if I can see anything that stands out.
 
burgerboy78 said:
I get what you're saying and I can see why land rover would have put out the bulletin.
However I did speak to Turner also and they said to use the metal ones. Also, reading many a forum post suggests also to use the metal ones.

If the head has now cracked then surely oil pressure is higher than coolant pressur so it would be leaking oil into the coolant?

If you look at where dowels actually sit then it would have had to have cracked a massive amount to join a water and oil gallery. Are either of yours pre 2002 10p engines and have either of you had the head of of yours?

Im going to take the head back off to see if I can see anything that stands out.
Click to expand...

I've done three TD5 head gaskets in the last few months, one of them was my 2000 Defender. I was unsure whether to use the steel dowels or not but they are the same size as the plastic ones, they fitted fine and there have been no problems.

Turners words to my mate : "Land rover bulletins are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools" o_O Make of that what you will, but they categorically said to use steel dowels in all cases.

Did you use a quality gasket (VR / Elring) and tighten the bolts correctly with an angle gauge?
 
My comment was more directed at the other two not you but yes all items were purchased from turner's.

3 hole elring gasket, Turner head bolts and their top head gasket set so I had all the seals for the head.

Head was pressure checked and had a light skim by a reputable local company so I don't belive there was an issue with the head before I done the work.

Was torqued and angled as per the document that came in the headgasket which I checked against the landy manual which I found online.

Guess I could compression check and pressurise the coolant but either way it's going to have to be stripped down again.
 
tom1979 said:
Turners words to my mate : "Land rover bulletins are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools"
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yes, as i said i can testify for one case of cracked 10P head after steel dowels were fitted and it certainly wasnt cracked before that... maybe it's the only case which confirms that "may result" or that bulletin was issued based on a hint ? ... my option is to be a fool and obey official LR documents rather than what part suppliers are saying
tom1979 said:
Turner Engineering who specifically say NOT to use plastic dowels on any TD5 head as it causes "head shuffle". They clearly have never come across any head cracking caused by steel dowels.
Click to expand...
Though have somebody ever come across a Td5 with ''head shuffle"(what ever this is) caused by plastic dowels? ... i've seen one case of ''shuffle'' but it happened to a smart guy who refitted the head bolts cos somebody said on a forum that it's OK to reuse them...and btw he had steel dowels fitted... please somebody explain how a properly torqued head with quality bolts can suffer from ''shuffle'' ? ..of if the bolts are loosing theyrs clamping load how would some locating dowels(even titanium) overcome the effects of that ?
 
sierrafery said:
yes, as i said i can testify for one case of cracked 10P head after steel dowels were fitted and it certainly wasnt cracked before that... maybe it's the only case which confirms that "may result" or that bulletin was issued based on a hint ? ... my option is to be a fool and obey official LR documents rather than what part suppliers are saying
Though have somebody ever come across a Td5 with ''head shuffle"(what ever this is) caused by plastic dowels? ... i've seen one case of ''shuffle'' but it happened to a smart guy who refitted the head bolts cos somebody said on a forum that it's OK to reuse them...and btw he had steel dowels fitted... please somebody explain how a properly torqued head with quality bolts can suffer from ''shuffle'' ? ..of if the bolts are loosing theyrs clamping load how would some locating dowels(even titanium) overcome the effects of that ?
Click to expand...

Don't shoot the messenger! I'm just relaying what a TD5 engine specialist thinks. I didn't say it was right.
 
I'm not shooting i just want to understand.... and since when turners or others are better specialists than those who issued that bulletin? IMO we are in a ''no man's land" between "steel dowels may cause head cracking" and "plastic dowels may cause head shuffle" :confused: ... while i've seen once a cracked head after steel dowels were fitted but didnt see any "head shuffle" caused by plastic dowels :cool:
 
It may be the combination of a head skim and steel dowels that's the decisive factor in this case. Perhaps they could have bottomed out in their holes as the gasket compressed and damaged the softer alloy head. Maybe punched through into a water passage? Whereas plastic ones would have a bit more give to them.
 
Brown said:
It may be the combination of a head skim and steel dowels that's the decisive factor in this case. Perhaps they could have bottomed out in their holes as the gasket compressed and damaged the softer alloy head. Maybe punched through into a water passage? Whereas plastic ones would have a bit more give to them.
Click to expand...

that is quite feasible, but don’t forget LR say the TD5 heads must not be skimmed, so their justification for the head dowels issue must come from somewhere else
 
Yes indeed, they don't recommend machining. I'm just saying it might be the length of the dowels (and the fact they won't squash up) rather than their diameter that could be the problem.
 
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