Blowing Turbos

Quick question regarding 300tdi turbo units. I blew two trubos at the weekend, Both in the same place and have had exactly the same failure previously. I have not come across this failure point anywhere else.
The two vehicles in question were racing in a rally event but the engines are stock other than running a boost pin and straight through exhaust. Although both turbos were swapped in time to complete the rally both vehicles ended up dropping a stage.
Both failure were the same and had blown the end cap out of the turbo unit (cooking the alternator and wiring in the process). Apologies I forgot to take pics of the actual units, but a few photos from google show the part that blew out (green circle):


Does this cap serve any purpose, and is there any way to eliminate this failure point with easily available standard parts/upgrades with a sensible budget. I am not looking for an insane "as much power as possible" unit, as I said most of it is stock engine.

Never had mine go there. And that’s also fitted in a comper wound out to 18psi
Can you remove a header drill & fit roll pins?
Them EG readings are good from that positions as well,(you can tell if the turbo is playing up as temp is not consistent)

where were you racing ?

Hicap phill said:

Never had mine go there. And that’s also fitted in a comper wound out to 18psi
Can you remove a header drill & fit roll pins?
Them EG readings are good from that positions as well,(you can tell if the turbo is playing up as temp is not consistent)

where were you racing ?

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I could not find any mention of anyone's going there, but the two at the weekend is not the first time they have blown that cap out speaking to longer standing members of the team.

I am pushing to get the correct gauges to be able to set things up properly (even if just for setup and not fitted permanently) as atm there is no way of measuring EGT. Because the cap is blown out I don't even know what the cap looks like, is it similar to a core plug in shape so a drill and rollin would work or is it just a flat disc?

The hole is for access when the wastegate seat was machined. Won't hurt to weld a plate over to cover it up (but it means it then won't be serviceable in future).

Now I know what it is….sure It’s a flat plate
So would need a few fixings or weld to stop it from rolling over a single point.

Hicap phill said:

Now I know what it is….sure It’s a flat plate
So would need a few fixings or weld to stop it from rolling over a single point.

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Welding looks like a challenge because the manifold is cast and the plate is steel. looking if it would be possible to get a bracket on it that wraps and bolts around the turbo and weld he plate to the bracket?

I am assuming as it is a machining port there is not a turbo option that doesn't not have it.

What temperature you got at the EGR probe?
Have they still got standard fans fitted?(engine bay may be getting too hot)
Have you chatted with a turbo manufacturers like garrets to see if they have a fix?

Thought….
Can you drill/tap some holes In the face of the manifold & put a larger flat plate across the face ?

As per @Hicap phill , drill & tap a larger plate over steel plug + fill the recess between plates with a chemical metal to ensure no loss of pressure.

This similar to core plug mod on XK/XJ racing engines where core plugs have a tendency to fail.

Bl@@dy turbos. I can't stop any turbo I put on pushing oil through the seals and in to the intercooler

Al2O3 said:

Bl@@dy turbos. I can't stop any turbo I put on pushing oil through the seals and in to the intercooler

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Hi @Al2O3 , have you had your turbo rebuilt/is it a new unit? This seems to be a re-occurring problem with Land Rovers...no idea why as they're operating on low-mid boost, unless turbo seals are tired and/or the head is over pressurising and pushing oil through the breather into intake. Ultimately they're just low-mid pressure turbos within a simple turbo set-up.

If it helps, I had my original turbo re-built by Turbo Dynamics and added an AlliSport i/c with a V8250 re-routed i/c hose set up, AlliSport oil breather with new hoses and std air filter set up. I get no oil blow through/residue, it's super clean.

Have you tried getting engine up to temperature and then removing the rocker cover to see oil levels/coated[?] at rockers into the breather? If heavily coated the head may be over pressuring.

v8250 said:

Hi @Al2O3 , have you had your turbo rebuilt/is it a new unit? This seems to be a re-occurring problem with Land Rovers...no idea why as they're operating on low-mid boost, unless turbo seals are tired and/or the head is over pressurising and pushing oil through the breather into intake. Ultimately they're just low-mid pressure turbos within a simple turbo set-up.

If it helps, I had my original turbo re-built by Turbo Dynamics and added an AlliSport i/c with a V8250 re-routed i/c hose set up, AlliSport oil breather with new hoses and std air filter set up. I get no oil blow through/residue, it's super clean.

Have you tried getting engine up to temperature and then removing the rocker cover to see oil levels/coated[?] at rockers into the breather? If heavily coated the head may be over pressuring.

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Hi mate. Sorry, I was just venting over a sore point with me. It's a very long story from my engine rebuild. I've got a thread on it in the Engine sub forum, but I've not added anything to it for ages. When the weather gets better I might start investigating it again. To answer your question I'm on to turbo number 4. Two reconditioned ones, then a brand new one, then I replaced the core in one myself. It's obviously not the turbos, but I always get a lot if oil coming through, in to the inter cooler and then in to the engine. It's been a proper brain teaser.

Al2O3 said:

Hi mate. Sorry, I was just venting over a sore point with me. It's a very long story from my engine rebuild. I've got a thread on it in the Engine sub forum, but I've not added anything to it for ages. When the weather gets better I might start investigating it again. To answer your question I'm on to turbo number 4. Two reconditioned ones, then a brand new one, then I replaced the core in one myself. It's obviously not the turbos, but I always get a lot if oil coming through, in to the inter cooler and then in to the engine. It's been a proper brain teaser.

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My money would be on the breather for a normal engine but with everything else you have done I am assuming that was the first thing you eliminated!

Hi @Al2O3 , 2x quick Q's? and they might sound a bit obvious...

1. has your engine the correct dipstick :. engine being oil filled as per book? It would be worth draining the oil, measuring out correct volume and adding oil ignoring the dipstick.
2. is the oil level increasing without you noticing and then under full operational temp blowing up and through the breather back into air intake and ultimately the turbo? This can happen if there's a coolant leak from either 1. the engine, and/or 2. from the radiator to adjoining oil cooler [this was one of the failure points on my engine resulting in a rebuild with no sign of coolant/oil mix/mayonnaise ]

dag019 said:

My money would be on the breather for a normal engine but with everything else you have done I am assuming that was the first thing you eliminated!

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Yeah, I've had it venting in to a catch can. Replaced the cyclone trap and replaced the vent tubes.

v8250 said:

Hi @Al2O3 , 2x quick Q's? and they might sound a bit obvious...

1. has your engine the correct dipstick :. engine being oil filled as per book? It would be worth draining the oil, measuring out correct volume and adding oil ignoring the dipstick.
2. is the oil level increasing without you noticing and then under full operational temp blowing up and through the breather back into air intake and ultimately the turbo? This can happen if there's a coolant leak from either 1. the engine, and/or 2. from the radiator to adjoining oil cooler [this was one of the failure points on my engine resulting in a rebuild with no sign of coolant/oil mix/mayonnaise ]

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Original dipstick and oil levels ok. That is until they go down due to the oil being burned. To be fair, I need to check the consumption again. Until I rebuilt the engine it used to be the Mrs daily drive to work, so it did a fair few miles and it was easy to keep a check on the oil level and see it go down. At it's worst is was using a ml per mile. Doesn't sound a lot, but the miles soon rack up and the oil goes down correspondingly.
The last thing I tried was changing the vac pump and I've not checked the consumption since then. It still smells though. It can go for a week or more without being used these days. I use it so infrequently I forget to keep an eye on the oil
No the oil level doesn't increase. It just goes down.

Something that I've remembered since I've tried all sorts of things is that when I replaced the cam shaft bearings the big front one had a smaller hole than the original. I phoned Turner Engineering because I bought all my engine parts from them and asked if they had sent the wrong set. They said the set was correct and that they used the ones with the smaller hole to increase the oil pressure. I don't know if this just affects the camshaft bearing pressure in the head or ups the pressure elsewhere. However, I would have thought the pressure relief valve would ease off any excess pressure. I have had the sump off to have a look and took the pressure relief valve out again to see if there was a blockage. No blockage, but I have been wondering if I've somehow replaced the valve the wrong way. I don't even know if you can.
A few years ago someone suggested I put an inline pressure regulator in. At the time I thought I shouldn't need to do that. I'm tempted now though
As I say, when it gets a bit warmer and I can lie under it on the drive again I'll restart the investigations.

Thanks for the suggestions fellas, I really appreciate you putting your minds to it.

If Frida and Richard this is correct, then it's correct. Re' pressure valve, I'd be inclined not to fit a regulator - the regulator [fixed or adjustable] simply caps pressure output and this is the job of a fully functioning/correctly spec'd pump and relief valve, i.e. it pumps at a certain rate and :. required pressure + adjusted through system relief. + a regulator is yet another point of failure.

v8250 said:

If Frida and Richard this is correct, then it's correct. Re' pressure valve, I'd be inclined not to fit a regulator - the regulator [fixed or adjustable] simply caps pressure output and this is the job of a fully functioning/correctly spec'd pump and relief valve, i.e. it pumps at a certain rate and :. required pressure + adjusted through system relief. + a regulator is yet another point of failure.

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I agree on both points. The Turners certainly know what they are doing. Also, I've heard that regulators can fail

Just to add how important it is to manage any oil coming through the turbo into the intake system. Things escalate quickly - I thought it was so rare are to almost be an urban myth about diesels running away while burning engine oil. Until I was filling up at the petrol station one day and this chap pulled into the layby with the engine screaming it's knackers off. I got him to put it into 5th and drop the clutch to stall it (I wasn't keen on going near it myself because bits were going to start exiting soon). Never seen anything quite like it - and certainly that engine never ran again.

MattYorke said:

Just to add how important it is to manage any oil coming through the turbo into the intake system. Things escalate quickly - I thought it was so rare are to almost be an urban myth about diesels running away while burning engine oil. Until I was filling up at the petrol station one day and this chap pulled into the layby with the engine screaming it's knackers off. I got him to put it into 5th and drop the clutch to stall it (I wasn't keen on going near it myself because bits were going to start exiting soon). Never seen anything quite like it - and certainly that engine never ran again.

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Mine had a brief run away, which is why I had to rebuild the engine. It certainly does happen.