All Wheel Drive Options?

I'm looking for an "All Wheel Drive" system that I can start a build-up
from, can anyone recommend a good starting point? Website for all wheel
drive parts etc. or a car/truck model to have a look at.

I need something that can be stretched and handle up to 500hp. IDEAS? I want
true All wheel drive not 4x4.

Audis Quattro comes to mind .. its true AWD (Torsen Diffs) and handles
430 HP of their V8 motor .... it should hold up to 500 HP at least for
a reasonable period ..

It will be expensive though ..
Matt

HotRod wrote:
>
> I'm looking for an "All Wheel Drive" system that I can start a build-up
> from, can anyone recommend a good starting point? Website for all wheel
> drive parts etc. or a car/truck model to have a look at.
>
> I need something that can be stretched and handle up to 500hp. IDEAS? I want
> true All wheel drive not 4x4.

You probably mean: not part-time 4x4 here ?

What about a Range Rover.
The chassis makes it easy to built your own whatever on top and you have
full time 4WD.
Erik-Jan,

--
http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper

From what I've read and heard, Please correct me if I'm wrong, the
difference between 4x4 and "All Wheel Drive" AWD is that on a 4x4 system the
wheels always travel at the same speed like in my GM Trail Blazer. Great for
rock crawling but not racing, I believe that AWD systems are viscous coupled
and therefore each wheel is able to travel at it's own speed and I will get
a lot better traction control in snow and rain???

I'm building a custom car and think I want AWD for rain and snow.





"HotRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm looking for an "All Wheel Drive" system that I can start a build-up
> from, can anyone recommend a good starting point? Website for all wheel
> drive parts etc. or a car/truck model to have a look at.
>
> I need something that can be stretched and handle up to 500hp. IDEAS? I
> want true All wheel drive not 4x4.
>

HotRod wrote:
>
> From what I've read and heard, Please correct me if I'm wrong, the
> difference between 4x4 and "All Wheel Drive" AWD is that on a 4x4 system the
> wheels always travel at the same speed like in my GM Trail Blazer.


The open diffs, as in your GM, will allow the wheels to spin at
different speeds. So go for this set-up. This will probably last longer
with a 500HP engine compared to viscous coupled systems like in the
Audi.
If the wheels on your GM weren't able to spin at different speeds it
would almost be impossible to take any corner with that car.
For rockcrawling you need lockers in the front and rear diff. Will be
horrible on ice and snow.
Your car or a standard Range Rover does not have lockers.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.




Great for
> rock crawling but not racing, I believe that AWD systems are viscous coupled
> and therefore each wheel is able to travel at it's own speed and I will get
> a lot better traction control in snow and rain???
>
> I'm building a custom car and think I want AWD for rain and snow.

Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride was
nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer taking a
corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole time?

The system you just described can leave you with only one of any 4
potential drive tires spinning on ice.

At least with a 'part time' 4x4 you will always have one front and one
back spinning and if you put limited slip or a manual locker front and
rear, you can have all 4 goosing it if needed.

Even Jeeps that offer the select trac 'full time' or AWD 4x4 with a
coupler front to rear still let you lock it up into part time 4x4 for
real snow traction.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

HotRod wrote:
>
> From what I've read and heard, Please correct me if I'm wrong, the
> difference between 4x4 and "All Wheel Drive" AWD is that on a 4x4 system the
> wheels always travel at the same speed like in my GM Trail Blazer. Great for
> rock crawling but not racing, I believe that AWD systems are viscous coupled
> and therefore each wheel is able to travel at it's own speed and I will get
> a lot better traction control in snow and rain???
>
> I'm building a custom car and think I want AWD for rain and snow.
>
> "HotRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I'm looking for an "All Wheel Drive" system that I can start a build-up
> > from, can anyone recommend a good starting point? Website for all wheel
> > drive parts etc. or a car/truck model to have a look at.
> >
> > I need something that can be stretched and handle up to 500hp. IDEAS? I
> > want true All wheel drive not 4x4.
> >

"HotRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride was
> nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer taking
> a corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole
> time?

Probably because your 4x4 has front and rear diffs, but not a diff in the
transfer case. Right and left can move at different speeds, but the tires w/
power in the front and rear have to move at the same speed. And in a sharp
turn, the front and rear travel a slightly different radius. And you're
right, if you want to drive on ice and have four wheel drive on all the
time, an AWD setup as you described (not traditional 4x4) is the way to go.
But I could be wrong. I just learned/realized this a few months ago, so I'm
no expert.

I would think a Subaru might be a good place start. Or an Eclipse (I know
you could get older ones w/ AWD). Or an old AMC Eagle. Being older, it might
be a ladder frame, or at least a frame that doesn't include the whole body
like a new one, which could make it easier to build on. And they had a lot
or ground clearance- like a sedan on a compact truck frame.

-Will

-Will

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:40:47 -0500, "HotRod" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'm looking for an "All Wheel Drive" system that I can start a build-up
>from, can anyone recommend a good starting point? Website for all wheel
>drive parts etc. or a car/truck model to have a look at.
>
>I need something that can be stretched and handle up to 500hp. IDEAS? I want
>true All wheel drive not 4x4.
>

If you are truly looking to "Hot Rod" something, I'd suggest either an
Olds Bravado or GM AWD Astro/Safari van. (Hear me out before you
start laughing!)

Both models, pre 99, used a tough viscous clutch AWD transfer case.
Basically the same case that was used in the Syclone/Typhoon models.
While the SyTys didn't come with 500hp, many folks have pushed them to
that level and beyond. (In 99 they switched to an electronic clutch.
The jury is still out on this transfer case, but it seems to be less
dependable due to the required electronics.)

A small block V-8 will drop right in to the Astro/Safari AWD van with
only oil pan mods and motor mounts being needed. (Two companies offer
parts to do it.) Several folks have dropped big blocks into these
vans, but I'm not aware of any running AWD.

The Bravada is probably a tight fit for a V-8 as I've read that is the
case for the S-series trucks. Still, kits are out there to do it.

Of course you could also build your own Syclone/Typhoon type truck by
swapping the above mentioned T-case into any of the S-series 4x4
trucks and SUVs. In fact, you could do the same to a fullsize GM
truck or SUV, but you may need to carefully match transmission output
shafts and the like.

As for the mention of AWD leaving you with only 1 wheel drive on ice,
that isn't the case with this AWD system. The standard torque split
is roughly 60/40 rear/front with it easily shifting to 50/50 when slip
is detected. (The system is a viscous clutch and a speed difference
between ends causes the fluid to heat and lock the clutch plates
together. While it isn't "locked" like a true 4x4 system, you will
NEVER experience 1 wheel drive. (I've been impressed how quickly the
system reacts and in real-world conditions, you never notice any slip.
My AWD van has over 160K miles on it and I used it as a snowmobile tow
vehicle for many years in New Hampshire and Maine. It is still my
preferred ride when the roads get slick.)

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion Van

HotRod wrote:
>
> Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride was
> nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer taking a
> corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole time?


Do not know about the specific set-up on your car.
But is it possible the centre diff is still engaged?
Or if it is part-time 4WD you forgot to change to 2WD mode?
Something broken?
Any other lockers present? Locked? Broken?
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.

--

http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper

When you are in part time 4x4, the front and rear axles are locked
together.

This means that one front tire has to scuff the ground or slip when you
take a corner because the front tires physically travel farther than the
rear when taking a corner.

With AWD or 'full time' 4x4, there is a limited slip of some sort in the
middle so you can have slip between front and rear axles so when you
corner the slip happens in the middle.

This is nice sometimes because all 4 wheels see equal torque. This is
bad sometimes because like any open differential, when traction is
uneven you can end up with only say the rear turning on ice because it
has the least traction, then the rear open diff comes in and bingo,
there you are sitting with one tire merrily spinning away and you going
nowhere fast. All the makers have different systems so things vary.

I find in city driving on snow or slush when I use part time 4x4, I
shift out just before a left turn so I track the corner, then hit 4x4 as
I straighten out.

I think you are looking for something like the Jeep 'selec trac' system
that has the AWD or 'full time' with the center diff for the rain and
light snow with the 'part time' locked option available for the best
traction.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

HotRod wrote:
>
> Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride was
> nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer taking a
> corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole time?

HotRod proclaimed:
> Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride was
> nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer taking a
> corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole time?

The best explanation I can offer is an analogy based on "never confuse
the concept with the implementation."

There are girls, and there are sheep.

Some girls have more wool than the sheep, and not all of the girls are
better looking than the sheep.

On this side of the pond, AWD is usually reserved for those vehicles
which offer some sort of drive to 4 wheels but lack a low range and
sometimes a transfer case. 4wd is those with a transfer case and
usually a low range. There are full time and part time 4wd, and
folks who leave the part-time 4wd engaged tend to have trouble with
driving ease. Seen 2wd vehicles with the same issue, some of the
old muscle cars that had been a bit too aggressively set up for
street racing tended to hop pretty bad around corners, with a lot
of drama and noise due to a too tightly set up rear limited slip
or out and out locker.

THANKS for the course on 4x4, I think what I'm looking for is fill time 4x4
or AWD, I really don't need the low range option. I'll keep hunting and keep
everyone p[osted when I come up with a few more ideas. THANKS

"HotRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I need something that can be stretched and handle up to 500hp. IDEAS? I want
> true All wheel drive not 4x4.

You'll find a lot of discussion of powerful AWD Subarus here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=79

400 hp isn't a problem for those. Dunno about 500, but nasioc is a good place to find out.

I would be keeping to the simple if I could when wanting power. The
more fancy parts involved, the more fancy (read expensive) things there
are to blow out at full torque.

I think the strongest set up would be one for a 4x4 truck like a Jeep or
some other which does have the low range. You don't need to use the low
unless you like popping wheelies or something.....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

HotRod wrote:
>
> THANKS for the course on 4x4, I think what I'm looking for is fill time 4x4
> or AWD, I really don't need the low range option. I'll keep hunting and keep
> everyone p[osted when I come up with a few more ideas. THANKS

Mike Romain wrote:
> You don't need to use the low
> unless you like popping wheelies or something.....

Or just to impress your friends while burning tires....
Do not tell them you have low range just convince them it is over 1000
HP. 4 wheels spinning in smoke....great....
Erik-Jan.

Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > You don't need to use the low
> > unless you like popping wheelies or something.....
>
> Or just to impress your friends while burning tires....
> Do not tell them you have low range just convince them it is over 1000
> HP. 4 wheels spinning in smoke....great....
> Erik-Jan.

LOL! Could have some fun with that..... If manual or even a vacuum
switched hubs, you can keep it in 2 low even with a switch.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

"Will" <[email protected]> writes in article <[email protected]> dated Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:06:48 -0500:
>
>"HotRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride was
>> nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer taking
>> a corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole
>> time?
>
>Probably because your 4x4 has front and rear diffs, but not a diff in the
>transfer case. Right and left can move at different speeds, but the tires w/
>power in the front and rear have to move at the same speed.

That's not exactly right. An open diff matches the *sum* of the right and
left angular velocity to the input angular velocity. That's why if you jack
up both drive wheels on a 2WD vehicle and spin one of them with the engine
off (but in gear), the other will spin in at an equal speed in the opposite
direction.

So in the case of a regular 4x4 with 2 open diffs, you have

LF + RF = LR + RR = driveshaft

And yes, that does make it "fight" turns, because the 4 wheels travel in
different paths. Some manufacturers have played with 4-wheel steering. If
the rear wheels are steered exactly oppositely to the front wheels, you
don't have that issue because LF=LR and RF=RR.

Chevy Suburbans have had an AWD option since the stone age.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.

Spud Demon wrote:

> That's why if you jack
> up both drive wheels on a 2WD vehicle and spin one of them with the engine
> off (but in gear), the other will spin in at an equal speed in the opposite
> direction.

As far as I recall this will also happen in neutral ???
Erik-Jan.

Yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking about a diff right. Thanks.

-Will

"Spud Demon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Will" <[email protected]> writes in article
> <[email protected]> dated Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:06:48 -0500:
>>
>>"HotRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Any chance you can explain to me why when driving an AWD car the ride
>>> was
>>> nice and smooth, including sharp corners but on my 4x4 trail blazer
>>> taking
>>> a corner is tough, I tend to feel like I'm fighting the wheel the whole
>>> time?
>>
>>Probably because your 4x4 has front and rear diffs, but not a diff in the
>>transfer case. Right and left can move at different speeds, but the tires
>>w/
>>power in the front and rear have to move at the same speed.
>
> That's not exactly right. An open diff matches the *sum* of the right and
> left angular velocity to the input angular velocity. That's why if you
> jack
> up both drive wheels on a 2WD vehicle and spin one of them with the engine
> off (but in gear), the other will spin in at an equal speed in the
> opposite
> direction.
>
> So in the case of a regular 4x4 with 2 open diffs, you have
>
> LF + RF = LR + RR = driveshaft
>
> And yes, that does make it "fight" turns, because the 4 wheels travel in
> different paths. Some manufacturers have played with 4-wheel steering.
> If
> the rear wheels are steered exactly oppositely to the front wheels, you
> don't have that issue because LF=LR and RF=RR.
>
> Chevy Suburbans have had an AWD option since the stone age.
>
> -- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.