Series 3 A creative day in 1977 causes confusion 39 years later

Riggwelter · Jul 21, 2016

I recently bought a 1977 Series 3, 88" truck cab, diesel. As with most old Landies, it came with a lot of charm and a lot of things to sort out. To get it to pass its MoT for the first time since 2003 (!), a number or things need to be done. This post is about an interesting feature regarding the brakes and freewheeling hubs... brakes first:

I ordererd a standard brake overhaul kit from Paddock, SWBKIT1. The garage said thanks, ripped the cars in bits and noted that it worked fine for the rear axle, but less fine for the front axle. The front axle seems to have larger drums, 58 mm wide brake shoes and double brake cylinders. What kind of axle is this? From a 109? But the 109 does not have double cylinders, does it...? What parts do I need to order to sort out a complete brake overhaul?

So, the AVM freewheeling hubs. The handles were stuck, but they worked. So I thought that I should have them replaced with something new that actually can be trusted... The garage cut off the outer bit with the handle instead of removing the entire hub. Not what I would have chosen, but hey... you can't have everything. However: it turns out that it is a 21 spline half shaft. Fine, you can get FWH's for 10 spline and 24 spline half shafts, but not 21 spline. This adds to the axle issue above... what kind of axle is this?

Anyway, I decided to bin the FWH idea altogether and go for regular drive flange with hubcaps and the lot. Enter the problem with the 21 spline halfshaft. Are there any drive flanges for 21 spline half shafts? If not, can I change the half shafts to 24 splines to have the option of adding FWH's or drive flanges? If so, what half shaft should I order, and will it fit this mysterious axle?

So, the questions:

What kind of front axle is it?
What parts do I need to order to sort out a complete brake overhaul for the front axle?
If I change the halfshafts to 24 splines, which type do I need?

Over to you, wise people! Pictures can be arranged.

Bobsticle · Jul 22, 2016

My 88 also has later 11 inch double cylinder front brakes but when I got the new cylinders and shoes from Paddocks luckily they just fitted. I cant remember off hand but the half shafts have different spline numbers on each end. Very strange.

Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front LH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front RH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Brake shoes (axle set) - LWB front 4cyl/SWB fr80/81 - Mintex

jamesmartin · Jul 22, 2016

Bobsticle said:
My 88 also has later 11 inch double cylinder front brakes but when I got the new cylinders and shoes from Paddocks luckily they just fitted. I cant remember off hand but the half shafts have different spline numbers on each end. Very strange.

Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front LH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front RH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Brake shoes (axle set) - LWB front 4cyl/SWB fr80/81 - Mintex

as fitted to the 109 after 1980 8s and 109s had the same front brakes ie twin cylinder

Bobsticle · Jul 22, 2016

jamesmartin said:
as fitted to the 109 after 1980 8s and 109s had the same front brakes ie twin cylinder

All I know is the front axle looks a lot more modern than the rear one. Never seen half shafts like mine though with 10 splines on one end and 24 on the other. I just hope they never go.

jamesmartin · Jul 22, 2016

Bobsticle said:
All I know is the front axle looks a lot more modern than the rear one. Never seen half shafts like mine though with 10 splines on one end and 24 on the other. I just hope they never go.

it wont be an issue its std after 1980

CakeBandit · Jul 22, 2016

Bobsticle said:
My 88 also has later 11 inch double cylinder front brakes but when I got the new cylinders and shoes from Paddocks luckily they just fitted. I cant remember off hand but the half shafts have different spline numbers on each end. Very strange.

Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front LH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front RH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Brake shoes (axle set) - LWB front 4cyl/SWB fr80/81 - Mintex

A little off topic, but yesterday I was putting the drums back on mine. They all went back on except for the right front (11" LWB). On that one I changed out the dual rusty steel slave cyl with some aluminum ones I found. Drum would not go back on, I had to shave a bunch off each end of the shoes to get to work. I think the steel aftermarket slave cylinders are smaller then the aluminum ones. The aluminum also appear to have a wear plate on the solid side, maybe thats way its bigger. My setup is brake pads and drums that are new.
I am now a expert on removing the shoes and putting them back on. Must have did it a dozen times yesterday.

jamesmartin · Jul 22, 2016

CakeBandit said:
A little off topic, but yesterday I was putting the drums back on mine. They all went back on except for the right front (11" LWB). On that one I changed out the dual rusty steel slave cyl with some aluminum ones I found. Drum would not go back on, I had to shave a bunch off each end of the shoes to get to work. I think the steel aftermarket slave cylinders are smaller then the aluminum ones. The aluminum also appear to have a wear plate on the solid side, maybe thats way its bigger. My setup is brake pads and drums that are new.
I am now a expert on removing the shoes and putting them back on. Must have did it a dozen times yesterday.

pictures are good if you have issues like that ,it could be poor parts or the wrong parts wrong assembly etc

John S · Jul 22, 2016

Bobsticle said:
All I know is the front axle looks a lot more modern than the rear one. Never seen half shafts like mine though with 10 splines on one end and 24 on the other. I just hope they never go.

I've got that in my rear axle one side 10 the other 24. I can only assume someone rebuilt the differential that way. It's not insurmountable, all the parts are available.

jamesmartin · Jul 22, 2016

John S said:
I've got that in my rear axle one side 10 the other 24. I can only assume someone rebuilt the differential that way. It's not insurmountable, all the parts are available.

fitted the later half shaft and drive member

Bobsticle · Jul 22, 2016

CakeBandit said:
A little off topic, but yesterday I was putting the drums back on mine. They all went back on except for the right front (11" LWB). On that one I changed out the dual rusty steel slave cyl with some aluminum ones I found. Drum would not go back on, I had to shave a bunch off each end of the shoes to get to work. I think the steel aftermarket slave cylinders are smaller then the aluminum ones. The aluminum also appear to have a wear plate on the solid side, maybe thats way its bigger. My setup is brake pads and drums that are new.
I am now a expert on removing the shoes and putting them back on. Must have did it a dozen times yesterday.

I had the option of alloy cylinders but in my mind, if the cast iron ones can wear out in a few years then alloy ones can in a few months.

Bobsticle · Jul 22, 2016

jamesmartin said:
it wont be an issue its std after 1980

What do you think the advantages are. Progress like this must have had a reason. I could understand both ends being upgraded but not sure about one end.

jamesmartin · Jul 22, 2016

makes the drive member end of the half shaft stronger

CakeBandit · Jul 22, 2016

Bobsticle said:
I had the option of alloy cylinders but in my mind, if the cast iron ones can wear out in a few years then alloy ones can in a few months.

I think the wear is nominal, if I remember I still have some that say lucas or girling on it. Might still not be the originals. Anyway my thoughts are that the buffer piece is there for corrosion where the aluminum meets the steel shoe. I had trouble with the iron ones seizing up after the truck sits for a while after driving in the rain. Some pictures for jamesmartin.

Riggwelter · Jul 22, 2016

Bobsticle said:
My 88 also has later 11 inch double cylinder front brakes but when I got the new cylinders and shoes from Paddocks luckily they just fitted. I cant remember off hand but the half shafts have different spline numbers on each end. Very strange.

Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front LH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Wheel cylinder LWB 4cyl front & SWB front RH fr 80/81 - TRW Lucas
Brake shoes (axle set) - LWB front 4cyl/SWB fr80/81 - Mintex

Brilliant Bobsticle, this is a huge step forward!

The pictures I mentioned are now included, just for your confirmation. So, I consider my first 2 questions to be answered, but #3 remains... so, if I change the front halfshafts to 24 splines, which type of halfshaft (Paddock) do I need? I include a picture from the now ex-FWH (RH)

...

Riggwelter · Jul 22, 2016

Hm, by the way - could it be that the spacer in the picture with the FWH has nothing to do with the actual number of splines on the halfshaft? The spacer is probably from the top of the FWH. I don't think they actually removed the entire FWH, they just cut off the top. If the spacer has nothing to do with the number of splines on the halfshaft, i e if it is a 80/81 axle/halfshaft with 24 splines, then the question of 21 spline halfshafts can be ignored. Yes, I will contact the garage!

jamesmartin · Jul 22, 2016

Riggwelter said:
Brilliant Bobsticle, this is a huge step forward! The pictures I mentioned are now included, just for your confirmation. So, I consider my first 2 questions to be answered, but #3 remains... so, if I change the front halfshafts to 24 splines, which type of halfshaft (Paddock) do I need? I include a picture from the now ex-FWH (RH)View attachment 104149 View attachment 104150 View attachment 104151 View attachment 104152 View attachment 104153 View attachment 104154

Riggwelter · Jul 22, 2016

jamesmartin said:
remove the fwh first

Yup!

Bobsticle · Jul 22, 2016

Yep. That flange is part of the free wheeling hub.

Land Raver · Jul 22, 2016

All the bits for the later axle and brakes are readily available - I rebuilt mine 4 years ago. Some bits are more expensive that the older types though. The twin cylinder brakes should give you good stopping power if set up correctly but can sometimes be a little tricky to bleed and get the air out of them.

Riggwelter · Jul 25, 2016

Land Raver said:
All the bits for the later axle and brakes are readily available - I rebuilt mine 4 years ago. Some bits are more expensive that the older types though. The twin cylinder brakes should give you good stopping power if set up correctly but can sometimes be a little tricky to bleed and get the air out of them.

Uhm, "a little tricky" in Landy terms usually means "almost impossible" for armchair mechanics like myself. So, how tricky is the bleeding business for a garage with (hopefully) trained mechanics, albeit no Land Rover specialists?

Series 3 A creative day in 1977 causes confusion 39 years later

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