2.5 td starting problems

my 87 landrover 90 has always been crap when it comes to starting. i recently changed the glowplugs and had a huge lorry battery put in but still there is no difference. even after warming up the glowplugs for 5 minuets it still doesnt fire and will only fire after it has cranked for a minuet or two!! obviously it has been worse due to the cold weather but it shouldnt be this bad!
i should add tht once it is started it is absolutly fine and runs perfectly, no smoke no bad noises and has plenty of power(well as much as a td can have)!! any help please!!??

A diesel engine only needs fuel and compression to fire - even on cold days most engines will fire without using the glow plugs.
As you say the engine runs fine once started it sounds like the fuel is draining down and you're having to pump it back to the injectors after it has stood for a while before it will fire.

is there a way to sort this out?
im starting to get it competiton ready and i need to know if i need to add a new engine to the budget!

I in no way doubt that you've tried everything...i found out from experience that not touching the throttle at all resulted in better starting...

I have 200tdi now but previously a 2.5TD. Always took 1-2 mins glow plug heating to be interested in the morning and even after being left for a hour or so...it is just the way it is.
I only had the prob you outline if you, like storm says, touch the throttle at all and then it just was not up for it.

storm99 said:

I in no way doubt that you've tried everything...i found out from experience that not touching the throttle at all resulted in better starting...

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Takes Storms advice with regards to keeping your foot off the throttle when starting. The lucas / Cav injection pump has a very intricate cold starting mechanism which works very well (even in the coldest of conditions) BUT it will only operate (or engage if you like) providing you follow a couple of steps.



Locate the throttle linkage and throttle arm (around image point 10). When the engine is off and when the throttle pedal is fully off the floor, the throttle arm should be right up against the stop. in other words, there must be no tension in the throttle cable when the engine is off. If the throttle is open even very slightly, the cold start mechanism will not engage.

To start properly from cold, give your glow plugs no more than 30 seconds of heat. Any extra heat may damage the element or even cause the very tip of the glow plug to shatter / drop off into your engine which is the last thing you want. Next, full press the clutch pedal (even if you're in neutral), ensure that your foot is not touching the accelerator and then turn the key. It should turn over maybe once or twice and then fire straight up. At this point, you can hit the accelerator to help feed a little more fuel into the engine. Considering you've given the glow plugs five minutes, I'd be tempted to whip them back out and check you haven't damaged them. Simply hook the terminal up to the positive terminal of your battery and then ground the body to the battery using jump leads. It should be glowing red hot after about 15 seconds. If not. it's goosed.

The whole purpose of the cold start mechanism is to feed the engine a hell of a lot more fuel than it needs at startup. You'll probably also be greeted with a cloud of white / grey smoke for 30 seconds or so, this is quite usual. As soon as you touch the throttle, the cold start mechanism will disengage. I'd advice you hit the throttle about 5 seconds after the engine has started to help it run a bit smoother.

-Pos

cheers guys ill give it a shot!

have you seen the tips of the GPs glow red hot when fed from their own wiring ? - don't assume they get HOT !

until you have don't be messing with the IP

Hi,
Had the same with my '87 90TD, some mornings in winter it would nearly flatten the battery before firing up.
I practicly replaced the entire fuel system trying to cure the problem, thinking it was possibly fuel starvation, but nothing made any difference.
In the end the engine either blew a piston ring, or cracked a piston, 'cause it started pressurising the sump and blowing out through the dipstick pipe and oil filler cap.
(Took this as a hint to change it for a 200Tdi)

So if the previous posts haven't helped I'd recommend getting a compresion test done to see if that shows up any problems.

Great advice from everyone so far and the only thing I¨d add is to also drill out the banjo bolt on top of the fuel filter to 1mm. This made my old TD engine go from awful starter to 1st time every time with 2 minutes simple work That was before the engine went pop a few months after anyway and I saw the light and fitted a 200tdi like most people end up doing - maybe that tells you something too

Cheers

Richard

Shifty1962 said:

A diesel engine only needs fuel and compression to fire - even on cold days most engines will fire without using the glow plugs.
As you say the engine runs fine once started it sounds like the fuel is draining down and you're having to pump it back to the injectors after it has stood for a while before it will fire.

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if the problem is that fuel is draining away from where it needs to be, you could try using the re-priming pump? Once everything is primed and ready, you can feel that the pump doesn't suck anything more through the system, so just pump it, and try and feel if it's drawing any fuel through.

in addition to my first post i thought i should add this. the GP's are not that old but im going to put new ones in but i doubt that that will make much difference! i also checked that the throttle switch is right against the stopper but this seems to make no difference.
once it eventualy starts to fire, the engine seems to react similarly to when you pull off in a high gear or accidently put it in fith wen u mean to put it in 3rd. by this i mean it goes from very low revs (almost staling) and then chuggs its way up to normal idleing speed!!
does this give u any help on the diagnostics of my old girl?? thanks for previous helps but more needed!!

any one??

Rehgar said:

Hi,
Had the same with my '87 90TD, some mornings in winter it would nearly flatten the battery before firing up.
I practicly replaced the entire fuel system trying to cure the problem, thinking it was possibly fuel starvation, but nothing made any difference.
In the end the engine either blew a piston ring, or cracked a piston, 'cause it started pressurising the sump and blowing out through the dipstick pipe and oil filler cap.
(Took this as a hint to change it for a 200Tdi)

So if the previous posts haven't helped I'd recommend getting a compresion test done to see if that shows up any problems.

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did u replace the fuel lift pump? as the engine runs perfectly when started im assuming and hoping that its not somthing to do with compression!! andthat its more likely something to do with the fuel drainning away when not running?

l90edb said:

did u replace the fuel lift pump? as the engine runs perfectly when started im assuming and hoping that its not somthing to do with compression!! andthat its more likely something to do with the fuel drainning away when not running?

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Yes, I replaced the lift pump, all the injector pipes and even the return pipe. Also swaped the glow plugs.

One thing to try, is fitting a non return valve in the fuel line. Then you know the fuel can't drain back any further than where that is. I actually put two in, one just above the fuel tank, and one just before the lift pump.

Always started lovely in the Summer though.

It is starting to sound like a serious fuel starvation problem. First I'd check to make sure that you're getting fuel through to the injection pump. Disconnect the stop solenoid on the injection pump and then disconnect the pipe from the filter housing TO the injection pump (not the return pipe) at the injection pump end. Have someone crank the engine over and see how much fuel is 'ejaculated' from the pipe. There should be a good positive flow of fuel being forced out of the pipe. If there is no fuel there from the first two cranks - you've got a clogged fuel filter, a blocked fuel pipe or a knackered lift pump. You should not need to fit a non return valve into your fuel line - the lift pump has one and it should work very well if it's in good condition. To check the condition of your lift pump (and ruling out problems in the fuel filter housing) disconnect the pipe between the lift pump and the fuel filter housing and turn the engine over. Fuel should be quite literally launched at your bonnet. If not, your lift pump is lazy - replace it and also check that there are no clogs in the fuel line or the fuel pick up pipe in the fuel tank. Bear in mind your pick up pipe will NEED to come out in order to check its condition. They come in different forms, older ones having a mesh filter at the bottom which can be come gunked up - preventing fuel flow. They are only steel, so it's possible half of the pipe has rotten through, allowing air to be drawn into the fuel lines once fuel is below the level. This is a common problem if it's a vehicle that has been sat around for long time with a half filled fuel tank (I speak from past experience!). If there is a good supply of fuel to the pump, I'd suggest you have a timing problem - the belt may have slipped a tooth for example. If the amount of fuel being fed to your injection pump is naff, run through the whole system and rule out any problems as they come:

1) Replace fuel filter (you should have done this by now)
2) Replace fuel lift pump
3) Disconnect all pipes and check for blockages
4) Remove fuel pickup pipe and see if the filter mesh at the bottom (if it has one) has been clogged up with gunge

If all else fails - get a leakage test or check your timing.
-Pos

OK, to be really simple here:

My engine will not start without glow plugs, not without trying to turn 'er over for longer than I care to. I don't know about the 200tdi up, but the 2.5na just doesn't like it, and you're engine is much the same sorta thing. Have you tried taking a glowplug out, and seeing if it gets hot when glowing the plugs using the normal means. I presume that the glowplug light works ok on the dash?

i have checked all fuel systems like POS said and they work (lift pump potentialy a little lazy but it still has a good flow when engine being cranked. injectors are working as the tips of the GP's are wet with fuel. i have ordered some new glow plugs although the ones in there are only about a year old and have no visible corrosion to the tips.
i guess it could be something to do with the glow plug electrics and the wiring harness?? i will check it out.
i am i right in saying that if it is not the fuel system or the GP's then it could be a compression problem??

thanks for all help so far much appreciated!!

You're looking too far back in the system, look at the important end, the INJECTORS - wet GP tips OK, but are they getting sprayed immediately? Do you get white smoke during all this cranking?

I reckon you have air in the system, which is getting in after shutdown and letting diesel out, I had this myself a couple of years back, the first start of the day I had to essentially get the diesel to fill the lines and bleed through which the CAV pump cannot do well at all, in fact if it gets enough air into it there is NO WAY you will get it going until the injection lines are properly primed; thats why it uses a self bleeding filter head, any substantial amount of air after this filter and the engine will cut out, or in your case fail to start.

To check - on a first start of the day, undo the unions at all the injectors and try starting it, I think you will find you get NO diesel spilling out for a while (it will be quicker though as it will let it bleed well). If this is the case, you must work out where the problem is. If it gets to the stage of lots of PTFE and messing about I would suggest you order up £20 worth of new fittings and pipe and rerun all the pipe work and it should run good as new.

Check that all out first, then once you know you have good fuel IMMEDIATELY think dodgy injection pattern - how well does it run once it's going?

discomania said:

You're looking too far back in the system, look at the important end, the INJECTORS - wet GP tips OK, but are they getting sprayed immediately? Do you get white smoke during all this cranking?

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discomania said:

Check that all out first, then once you know you have good fuel IMMEDIATELY think dodgy injection pattern - how well does it run once it's going?

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all the way through cranking there is white smoke exiting the exhaust. i assume this means there is a constant supply of fuel into the cylinders?
and once going it is very very good. i would say it was one of the better examples of this engine out there apart from the starting obviously!
it sits very comfortably at 70/73mph, well powered (apart from up hill.....standard)!! no knocks or noises.
this is why i am so confused as to what is wrong with the starting of the bloody lump! could it be something to do with the electrics? possibly the GP wiring harness??
thanks for help, keep it coming! i am determined not to be beaten by this!!