1995 P38 BMW Diesel Fly By Wire?

Can one of you guys help me with my 1995 P38 BMW Diesel Range Rover please. I am told by my electronics garage that I have an intermittent wiring fault between the injector pump and the ecu. They say it is the wire that operates the fly by wire throttle. Can anyone tell me the colour code of this wire so I maybe able to replace it.
Thanks in advance.

Download The Range Rover II P38A (1995-1999) Workshop Manual HERE

Hope this helps answer your query.

Thanks for the link but I still can't find out the colour coding for the wires!

I'm afraid most garages including the main dealers bull**** when it comes to EMS systems so I would be interesting in knowing either what your symptoms are or how they supposedly diagnosed the intermittent wire? (Not surprising as they are not electronics engineers) Although time-consuming, it is straightforward to follow the circuits in the RAVE CD/service manual if you are an electronics man. More info needed please?

rrdiver said:

Not surprising as they are not electronics engineers

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So sure are you? I'll have you know that I am a fully trained LR master technician and specialise in the electronics side of it as well as the **** work like engines, gearboxes etc. You'll find that anyone who has worked at a landy dealer for long enough will have the expertise to diagnose the electrics whether its intermittant or not. Also we don't bull**** about EMS systems either, they're not exactly difficult to diagnose, especially on an old P38

Get yer facts straight before spouting bollocks on a public forum.

I was trying to be helpful as I have see too much in the way of bad advice given out by LR & BMW dealers! However I stand by my comments as LR 'trained master technicians technicians' are not professional electronics engineers and I have yet to meet a professional engineer working in a LR dealership, as no professional electronics engineer would have to do the **** work you descibe.(The dealership couldn't afford them anyway) Don't take it personally but I am talking about post graduate degree level and that is well beyond the capability of LR dealer service personnel, when it comes to certain faults! A 'technican' is not a qualified engineer. Sorry if you don't like the facts but other professionals will know what I am talking about.

rrdiver said:

I was trying to be helpful as I have see too much in the way of bad advice given out by LR & BMW dealers! However I stand by my comments as LR 'trained master technicians technicians' are not professional electronics engineers and I have yet to meet a professional engineer working in a LR dealership, as no professional electronics engineer would have to do the **** work you descibe.(The dealership couldn't afford them anyway) Don't take it personally but I am talking about post graduate degree level and that is well beyond the capability of LR dealer service personnel, when it comes to certain faults! A 'technican' is not a qualified engineer. Sorry if you don't like the facts but other professionals will know what I am talking about.

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Despite the obvious personal angle of your post,you are making statements here that point fingers tarring all main dealer technicians with the same brush.I think this is very unfair,the garage trade is going through a massive change with the constant additions of ever more complex systems in vehicles.Organisations such as ATA are working to improve standards and raise the overall level of competence in workshops.I do electronic work for 30 odd local garages,both independants and main dealers.There are good and bad in both,but it is suprising to me how many of them are keen to meet the challenge of the latest cars.
Another point I would like to make is that if all the techs are so poor at their jobs then why are there not rows of disabled cars everywhere ? On a daily basis they are being fixed and sent out.All of us need to start somewhere,and we all make mistakes - even "Highly paid proffesional electronics engineers." My brother works with a whole bunch of them in the comms business,there are some good stories.

The basics of my comments as an electronics engineer are that current EMS systems are prone to faults that cannot be analysed simply by using diagnostic equipment such as 'Testbook' or 'Carsoft' etc. In my experience it is not that the main dealers cannot use their specialised software analysis tools, but more that the ability of those tools is very limited. Technicians may well be well trained to a high level in manufacturerers diagnostics but when a fault exists that those diagnostics cannot identify then those technicians (who may be good at their basic job) do not then have the in depth theoretical knowledge to allow the more complex faults to be found easily. The dealer then spends hours on the problem and the customer gets the bill. Sometimes the existance of design faults by the manufacturer does not help. Two examples are the software bug in the earlier P38 Aircon panels that gave zero outside temperature when the engine is restarted when warm - that fault should have been corrected free of charge by Land Rover as it was a cock-up in their software, but they still charged for 'upgraded' ECU's. Another is regarding the failure of a power transister in an EMS ECU used in earlier Suzuki's, which can be corrected by either re-routing of one output line or the addition of an external relay. These types of fault, of which there are many, cause major problems for the private motorist, but when the dealers cannot identify them or are not prepared to tell the customer that the fault in design, the car owner still gets the bill for garage time. Under such circumstances dealers should not be charging anything if they have been unable to identify the cause of an problem that is frequently down to marginal design in components or software bugs. It's no different with Microsoft releasing new software (XP was full of bugs on release!) which then caused problems the ordinary punter could not fix easily. It is all very good for diagnostics to state that a sensor is faulty or an ECU needs replacing and the physical replacement of the part corrects the problem, but frequently the fault turns out to be a faulty termination that has corrected itself simply because it has been stressed. I believe thecomplexity of modern EMS systems requires more training than technican level on many occasions.

cliffman said:

Can one of you guys help me with my 1995 P38 BMW Diesel Range Rover please. I am told by my electronics garage that I have an intermittent wiring fault between the injector pump and the ecu. They say it is the wire that operates the fly by wire throttle. Can anyone tell me the colour code of this wire so I maybe able to replace it.
Thanks in advance.

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The fly-by-wire throttle is directly connected to the ECU via three wires. Yellow & Grey goes to Pin33, White to Pin 37 and Grey & White to Pin 25. (Shown on Page A6-10 of the circuits in RAVE)

The fuel pump assembly (injector pump) is also directly connected to the ECU by three wires. Grey to Pin 35, Red & Yellow to Pin 21 and Purple to Pin 39. (Page A6-9 on RAVE circuits)

The operation is a bit more complex in that it uses more than a single wire in both cases and there are other wires involved that do not go to the ECU, hence wanting more information. It could be that you have a high resistance connection between the wire itself and the termination pin. Hope this helps.

I agree more training is needed,but better respect for technicians is needed more,this will encourage more able youngsters into the trade.With a higher level of respect hopefully the pay offered will rise too.
The other thing that has not been mentioned is that in alot of larger dealerships there is little incentive to diagnose difficult issues,as time taken checking and testing can run away and become uneconomic.The customer does not always get the whole bill,it is common to go halves with the dealer putting their half down to training,so the next time the same issue arises they know where to look.Techs know they can earn better money and achieve performance targets by doing servicing instead.I was even told of a LR master technician who was sacked for poor performance,the acountants looked at his figures and made him leave.Trouble was he was the clever one sorting out all the difficult problems.How fed up was he ?
One last thing,if you take another look at Rave,Cliffman asked quite a specific question,and the answer is that the fuel quantity solenoid,(The bit that controls engine speed/output ) has 2 wires going to it via the 7pin plug on the EDC pump.A red/white,c586/7 and a blue,c586/4.
The other 5 wires are to do with fuel temp and injected quantity feedback.
BTW there was an issue with these cars a few years back that resulted in lots of engine looms being changed,so if Cliffmans car needs a new one or repairing,it wont be the first one.

eightinavee said:

I agree more training is needed,but better respect for technicians is needed more,this will encourage more able youngsters into the trade.With a higher level of respect hopefully the pay offered will rise too.
The other thing that has not been mentioned is that in alot of larger dealerships there is little incentive to diagnose difficult issues,as time taken checking and testing can run away and become uneconomic.The customer does not always get the whole bill,it is common to go halves with the dealer putting their half down to training,so the next time the same issue arises they know where to look.Techs know they can earn better money and achieve performance targets by doing servicing instead.I was even told of a LR master technician who was sacked for poor performance,the acountants looked at his figures and made him leave.Trouble was he was the clever one sorting out all the difficult problems.How fed up was he ?
One last thing,if you take another look at Rave,Cliffman asked quite a specific question,and the answer is that the fuel quantity solenoid,(The bit that controls engine speed/output ) has 2 wires going to it via the 7pin plug on the EDC pump.A red/white,c586/7 and a blue,c586/4.
The other 5 wires are to do with fuel temp and injected quantity feedback.
BTW there was an issue with these cars a few years back that resulted in lots of engine looms being changed,so if Cliffmans car needs a new one or repairing,it wont be the first one.

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I agree that the problem Cliffman has could be more complex - that's why I asked for symptoms. It is obviously not a case of a single wire between throttle potentiometer and pump because such a thing doesn't exist, but that is what he seems to be indicating he has been told. Interesting to know that there were problems with looms, but again I ask if it was the loom or terminations. What you are saying just supports my main theme in that complex faults need more understanding and theoretical training to sort out and you confirm that these problems do exist. I think the manufacturers ask too much of dealers technicians in the first place and yes, I agree that they will get the blame frequently when it is not their fault. It needs more openness and honesty from manufacturers and dealers if public confidence is to be restored, instead of simply saying that no fault exists because software tells them that is the case. How many vehicles have dangerously 'stopped dead' on the motorway due to EMS problems and how many manufacturers have tried to say that there isn't a problem and then issues recalls? Many of these problems are design issues but manufacturers rarely admit to that one! Other issues are down to drivers using vehicles with these systems in off-road wet conditions without realisinbg the amount of exposed connectors below the vehicles. It goes on.

Exposed connectors below vehicles - what crap ! Show me a single one.And from your posts trying to help Cliffman its plainly obvious you dont understand how EDC works,in his original post he asked about conductors between the ECU and the PUMP - not the throttle pedal and ECU.The ECU uses info from several sources - besides driver demand,(LR speak for throttle input) to decide what to output to the fuel quantity solenoid in the pump.
Sorry,but you come across as one who has very limited understanding of vehicle systems but are all too ready to slag off the trade as a whole,had a couple of situations where you were told things you didnt want to hear,(probably as you were being asked to pay for them)now you just want to bleat about it.
Cliffman,if you need more help with wire routing,colours and functions - please post back I will help if poss.

eightinavee said:

Exposed connectors below vehicles - what crap ! Show me a single one.And from your posts trying to help Cliffman its plainly obvious you dont understand how EDC works,in his original post he asked about conductors between the ECU and the PUMP - not the throttle pedal and ECU.The ECU uses info from several sources - besides driver demand,(LR speak for throttle input) to decide what to output to the fuel quantity solenoid in the pump.
Sorry,but you come across as one who has very limited understanding of vehicle systems but are all too ready to slag off the trade as a whole,had a couple of situations where you were told things you didnt want to hear,(probably as you were being asked to pay for them)now you just want to bleat about it.
Cliffman,if you need more help with wire routing,colours and functions - please post back I will help if poss.

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I will not lower myself to your level, but people with limited (in the true technical sense) understanding such as you seem to be displaying are the reason that main dealers sometimes get a bad name. The only crap seems to be coming from your computer. The next time you are underneath a P38 have a look at the exposed (by exposed I mean crimped inside plastic connectors that offer no proper waterproofing) on the bottom of the transfer box and up near the right hand side of it - there are several of them. If you want to find a few more, look at the ABS and EAS level sensor connectors. If you think they are waterproof and corrosion-proof it explains your lack of sophistication. Glad you are not looking for complex problems on my vehicle, but then I don't go to main dealers as I have seen too many bad and overpriced jobs from them. Like myself, you are entitled to your opinions but I will not continue any further in reply to your kindergarden rantings as this is not what this forum is about. Bye-Bye.

rrdiver said:

I will not lower myself to your level, but people with limited (in the true technical sense) understanding such as you seem to be displaying are the reason that main dealers sometimes get a bad name. The only crap seems to be coming from your computer. The next time you are underneath a P38 have a look at the exposed (by exposed I mean crimped inside plastic connectors that offer no proper waterproofing) on the bottom of the transfer box and up near the right hand side of it - there are several of them. If you want to find a few more, look at the ABS and EAS level sensor connectors. If you think they are waterproof and corrosion-proof it explains your lack of sophistication. Glad you are not looking for complex problems on my vehicle, but then I don't go to main dealers as I have seen too many bad and overpriced jobs from them. Like myself, you are entitled to your opinions but I will not continue any further in reply to your kindergarden rantings as this is not what this forum is about. Bye-Bye.

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So you dont want to lower yourself eh ? Where are your positive contributions to this forum,showing a "higher" level of understanding - you have yet to show any real competence or true understanding,esp in the original post pertaining to a specific question about a 15yr old EDC design.
I am not a main dealer technician,(and have never been employed by one)I run an independant LR workshop specialising in electrical issues,I regularly work for 6 other LR independants within about 30 miles and about 25 other independant general garages,oh and a couple of non LR main dealers who retail late model S/H LR's.
Kindergarden rantings ? I dont think so,I ruffled your feathers when you made statements without thought or knowledge to back them up.Why cant you just admit you were very rude and what little help you did offer was off course and of no help to the original issue.
I use this forum to help others in my spare time,not to row with people.
BTW if the ABS and EAS connectors are so poorly protected,how come they give so few problems ? If you really knew about LP RR's then you would know that ABS faults are usually worn wheel bearings,blown bulbs,burnt out booster pumps orbroken brake light switches.EAS faults are usually worn compressors,height sensors,porus air springs or failing drive packs.