Help needed - black exhaust smoke, overheating, rattling hot engine, conking out

[chiefweasel]

I'll post updates to this as I go through and eliminate potential threats and come across broken parts. For starters I'll summarise the suggestions I've had here and from what I've read of other people's problems. Reading the old posts was really interesting but I couldn't find many where the person with the problem (the problemee?) had posted up what the actual solution was from all of the suggestions made.

Potential problems/ideas:
1) oil getting into the cylinders around the valve stems.
2) check engine compression
3) check pipe between turbo and fuel pump for damage.
4) check cylinder/piston rings for source of new rattling*
5) with the head off take pics of the bores and post them up for comments and general mocking - might find impaired rings and cylinder scoring / glazing - could need rebore**
6) where did the new oil go?***
7) Lots of people with similar symptoms had to replace the head gasket. But I don't have any mayonnaise anywhere.
8) black smoke could be buggered fuel pump (although it's pumping fuel still) or the injectors need some loving.

Update
* - the new rattling was coming from the bonnet, the engine itself sounds fine (slaps head for not thinking of this earlier)
** - I'm going to run some K-seal through it to see if the smoke colour changes. No mayonnaise anywhere though. If the smoke colour changes/goes then I've got a crack/leak somewhere that the K-seal has temporarily filled. I've started it a few times to run the new oil through (see below), and the extra three pints of water that the coolant system needed and it's started fine every time. No black smoke but still some white, but nowhere near as much as before. I think one of the engine mounts needs attention as there's a clunk when it goes into gear. Grateful for thoughts on this one.
*** - I haven't found any signs of oil leakage. When the new turbo was fitted only two pints of oil was added to the engine. I think that it was already low on oil so the new 2 pints was possibly the only oil in the engine. Topped it up yesterday so we'll see if it stays topped up.

More to follow. I don't get loads of time to play with it so it's going to be a slow process.

 

[Sheeprus]

I don't get loads of time to play with it so it's going to be a slow process.

Isn't everything with you
good to see you on here mate, hope the fender feels better, sounded ok on the phone earlier.
We should get out and get muddy when I get back to blighty!

:mil76:

 

[chiefweasel]

I think I'd only get muddy for about 3 minutes before we all got smokey.

Latest on this is that:
- whilst it idles fine (and starts fine now it has a 1000 CCA battery) any pressure on the go fast peddal produces clouds of grey smoke;
- water is being used.

Last diagnosis was that the first turbo was fine (and didn't need replaing) and that the problem is a cracked head. I've taken heads off of petrol cars before just using a Haynes manual, is there anything I need to know about replacing the head on a 300tdi that isn't mentioned in the Haynes manual? Someone suggested having it skimmed instead of replacing it but I suppose this depends on where the crack is.

Thoughts welcome anyone.

PS - I don't have a garage so I'll be doing this under what is effectively going to be a tent. And I don't have any fancy tools.

PPS - at the same time I've got a replacement cambelt kit which I'm going to fit so any non-Haynes tips are very welcome on that one too.

Cheers

 

[Richard Martin]

What makes you think the head is cracked? Usually you would have to remove it and get it tested to reveal a crack

 

[fett]

dont use a ****part cambelt kit

 

[sprogthedog]

I'm by no stretch of the imagination a mechanic, but grey/white smoke sounds to me like you burning coolant, and a possible head gasket failure.

As for the over-revving is it possible that fuel is getting into the oil and causing the engine to "run away"?

 

[chiefweasel]

Right. Now I've got some money in my warchest I've had the engine apart. Piston number 2 was throwing itself around inside the cylinder (thankfully it's own cylinder) so it needs a new piston and a rebore; this is being costed now, as is a replacement second-hand 300 TDi engine. Once I have both figures I'll need to factor in any work that the existing head and associated moving parts need (e.g. valve grinding, bendy head) and see which is cheapest/best.

I'd like to hear your thoughts/experiences on this: Would you go for:
1) a second hand replacement engine which, if it doesn't have any immediate and obvious problems could develop them as any engine would;
2) rebuild the existing engine (which has done just shy of 100,000 miles) with new parts so I know what I'm dealing with.

A lot of you will have seen that Turner Engineering do a gasflowed head with moving parts included for £525; and I've found outsized pistons/rings on fleabay at £120 for four (links to both below). So once I include gaskets, bolts, a new timing belt kit, the rebore plus replacing any smaller worn connections, I reckon the total rebuild cost will be about £1500.

If the replacement engine is about the same would you go for the rebuild or the replacement engine. As it's a 300 TDI I'll be lucky to get one with relatively low mileage. So if I go for the replacement engine what's the maximum mileage it should have on it before it becomes too risky? Assuming that the mileage is genuine...

Has anyone fitted a gasflowed head from Turner Engineering? If so, is it worth doing?

This may or may not be interesting: when we looked at the piston #2 the ring breaks (where the rings naturally have a space in them) were all lined up in a perfect column whereas I'd expect these to be staggered. When the head came off it came off very easily, as if it had been off recently. I reckon that the previous owner had it off and whacked some piston seal in so it would last a few miles before going pop, exactly as it did to me. Would the piston rings move/vibrate in the ordinary running of the engine or would they stay static? I'm wondering if the ring breaks being lined up was a fluke and if it could have contributed to the problem.

Cheers


Gasflowed head link: Turner Engineering LDF500180 Performance 300TDI Cylinder Head

Fleabay piston link: LAND ROVER 300TDI PISTONS WITH RINGS x 4 -ERR2410020 | eBay

 

[chiefweasel]

Forgot to also mention that the water being used seems to have been a red herring and that it was likely locked air that was released when the engine started that gave the appearance of the water going down. Comedy of fecking errors this is turning out to be.

 

[DEFENDER90-DAZ]

You can get recon engines without ancillaries for around £900
You can get used engines for around £350

Depends what you want to spend??

Daz

 

[jamesmartin]

rings can move theres nothing to stop them ,id stick with new std head ,rebore should be around £120 ,yoiu have to buy pistons first as clearance for piston is only a thou and pistons can vary 0 to 6 thou from nominal size (they sell them in batch of 4 of the same size but may be different to marked size though you allways check ),if getting it rebored ensure the last thou is honed out to give lasting cross hatch,have you any pics of piston ?dont forget cam bearings

 

[DEFENDER90-DAZ]

RECONDITIONED ENGINE FOR DEFENDER DISCOVERY 200 TDI 300 TDI *UNBEATABLE PRICE* | eBay

Daz

 

[chiefweasel]

Thanks Daz. I've got £2k in the warchest but if I can spend less than that fixing the engine I want to spend the rest of it on the electrics and attending to the cosmetics (I've got new seats/ladders/steps/light guards etc waiting to be fitted) but it's dented to buggery in places and the wiper motors need some loving front and rear.

Recon at £900 sounds useful. All of my ancillaries are fine, especially the shiny new turbo that I didn't need.

Are all recons the same? I mean what can I expect to be reconned/not reconned?

 

[chiefweasel]

RECONDITIONED ENGINE FOR DEFENDER DISCOVERY 200 TDI 300 TDI *UNBEATABLE PRICE* | eBay

Daz

Perfect! This is the benchmark.

 

[DEFENDER90-DAZ]

Give the guy a bell and ask him loads of questions
It is on an exchange basis (as per the ad) but if you got it sent to you - you could swap everything over and fit the engine and send the old block to him probably

Daz

 

[chiefweasel]

rings can move theres nothing to stop them ,id stick with new std head ,rebore should be around £120 ,yoiu have to buy pistons first as clearance for piston is only a thou and pistons can vary 0 to 6 thou from nominal size (they sell them in batch of 4 of the same size but may be different to marked size though you allways check ),if getting it rebored ensure the last thou is honed out to give lasting cross hatch,have you any pics of piston ?dont forget cam bearings

Cheers, espesh about the last ream. I'll get pics up shortly.

 

[chiefweasel]

Went for the rebuild work instead as I heard a few horror stories about replacement engines going sideways and, as I'm going to keep it indefinitely (ask me this time next year if I still have it...), I want certainty of what's under the bonnet.

Couple of things worthy of comment here: We found that cylinder number 3 was pants too with even deeper scoring than number 2 so ended up boring (all 4 of them) out 40/1000s. Naturally number 3 was the last cylinder to be bored so had to re-do the initial boring of 20/1000s on the other cylinders. Moral of the story - thoroughly clean the cylinders before starting. Then clean them again. And again. Oversized pistons etc now in and rebuild underway.

Only tricky thing in the dismantling stage was removing the oil 'jets' from the bottom of the cylinders to get them out of the way of the boring equipment. These were secured by recessed nuts from underneath the cylinder so a real sod to get to, even with an extra pair of hands. Managed to get them out without snapping them but it was a close thing.

On the rebuild so far: Couple of glow plugs not performing well so new set going in, couple of valves not great so also being replaced. Should be 'back' on the road next week.

First job is to go round and see the bloke who sold it to me and pull his house down.

 

[jamesmartin]

how much did you leave to hone out

 

[mud muppet]

mmm think i would look at second hand lump to stick in.one thats got some guarantee withit.my mate had same probs.he had top end rebuild,head skim.and still loosing compression.i have got a number of someone who breaks landys.not near you though....pm if you want his number.

 

[chiefweasel]

how much did you leave to hone out

2.5/1000 for the honing. The cross hatching gets down to silly small sizes at 25Ra which apparently wears down to 20Ra within a day of use. Out of interest I'll keep an eye on the oil filter and see if it picks up anything chunky after a short while, but at these small measurements I wouldn't expect to see anything without a microscope.

 

[chiefweasel]

mmm think i would look at second hand lump to stick in.one thats got some guarantee withit.my mate had same probs.he had top end rebuild,head skim.and still loosing compression.i have got a number of someone who breaks landys.not near you though....pm if you want his number.

Cheers for that, fingers crossed I won't need to