GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
To the best of my knowledge, you are correct, its plastic.
If I really put my thinking cap on, there's plastic that can be recycled and plastic that can't - dunno why, maybe the stuff that can't is made from Russian oil.
Not much help really, like I have been through your project, but I've enjoyed reading it.
If I really put my thinking cap on, there's plastic that can be recycled and plastic that can't - dunno why, maybe the stuff that can't is made from Russian oil.
Not much help really, like I have been through your project, but I've enjoyed reading it.
andyfreelandy
Well-Known Member
Dunno but if you stuff it up I have a spare one 
I may have a resolution to my gearbox rattles. We shall see.
Yesterday I went to visit an auto gearbox specialist for them to have a listen.
They were adamant that the noise sounded like something outside of the gearbox, so inside the bell housing. They said it sounded like the flex plate, or bolts into the torque converter, or something like that is rubbing.
It would explain why the noise seems to be diminishing with time, as whatever is rubbing wears away.
Then on the way home I stopped at a paint shop to get some paint for the outer sills.
On restarting the noise got a loss worse and permanent, so I cut it off. After that it wouldn't start (starter motor not turning over). I left it a few minutes and then it would start, noise gone.
So I'm thinking that I don't have enough clearance from the starter ring and the starter motor teeth, or maybe I have a sticky starter motor that's not retracting enough.
I am using a standard bell housing, torque converter, flex plate, starter ring and starter motor so you would think that this would remain all stock, but, my flex plate is now bolted to a 1.8 K series crank, not a V6. Exact positioning of the the torque flex plate and torque converter compared with the gearbox input/oil pump does depend on the thickness of the converter plate and machining of the bell housing. Maybe (probably) I have it slightly closer that it was as stock and the tolerance of starter motor to starter ring is too close.
The good news is that if true it's easy to fix. It's just removing and repairing or replacing the starter motor. Probably it could do with a spacer to bring it back a bit. If the starter motor is ruined they aren't expensive. At least I won't have to drop the IRS and gearbox again. So I'm hopeful.
Yesterday I went to visit an auto gearbox specialist for them to have a listen.
They were adamant that the noise sounded like something outside of the gearbox, so inside the bell housing. They said it sounded like the flex plate, or bolts into the torque converter, or something like that is rubbing.
It would explain why the noise seems to be diminishing with time, as whatever is rubbing wears away.
Then on the way home I stopped at a paint shop to get some paint for the outer sills.
On restarting the noise got a loss worse and permanent, so I cut it off. After that it wouldn't start (starter motor not turning over). I left it a few minutes and then it would start, noise gone.
So I'm thinking that I don't have enough clearance from the starter ring and the starter motor teeth, or maybe I have a sticky starter motor that's not retracting enough.
I am using a standard bell housing, torque converter, flex plate, starter ring and starter motor so you would think that this would remain all stock, but, my flex plate is now bolted to a 1.8 K series crank, not a V6. Exact positioning of the the torque flex plate and torque converter compared with the gearbox input/oil pump does depend on the thickness of the converter plate and machining of the bell housing. Maybe (probably) I have it slightly closer that it was as stock and the tolerance of starter motor to starter ring is too close.
The good news is that if true it's easy to fix. It's just removing and repairing or replacing the starter motor. Probably it could do with a spacer to bring it back a bit. If the starter motor is ruined they aren't expensive. At least I won't have to drop the IRS and gearbox again. So I'm hopeful.
andyfreelandy
Well-Known Member
That was my take on it from what you said.
Maybe the starter welding affected the bendix arrangement and, as you say, it isn't returning.
Hoping it's simple.
Maybe the starter welding affected the bendix arrangement and, as you say, it isn't returning.
Hoping it's simple.
the results are in:-
weld let go on the pinion.
I think that I have been incredibly lucky. It that had fallen off and gone round the flex plate or torque converter I think that there's a real chance that it would have smashed it's way out of the bell housing.
Everything looks okay on the flexplate / starter ring:-
I spent some time yesterday trying to drill some holes into the pinion and shaft so that I could tap and insert some grub screws, but I think it's impossible. Even brand new cobolt drills hardly scratch it.
I also tried to take the starter motor to bits but the long cross head screws are very, very stuck in there.
I spent the evening reading about brazing and soldering and I have ordered some 56% silver solder rods and flux and I think I'm going to try and solder it on. I can apparently be done with a good propane torch and the heat is low enough that it doesn't unharden hardened steel. I think that a silver solder joint that covers the entire length of the splines is going to be a lot stronger than a few mm deep weld. I just wonder if I can get it hot enough without destroying the starter motor.
Fortunately, these V6 starter motors seem to be plentiful and cheap.
weld let go on the pinion.
I think that I have been incredibly lucky. It that had fallen off and gone round the flex plate or torque converter I think that there's a real chance that it would have smashed it's way out of the bell housing.
Everything looks okay on the flexplate / starter ring:-
I spent some time yesterday trying to drill some holes into the pinion and shaft so that I could tap and insert some grub screws, but I think it's impossible. Even brand new cobolt drills hardly scratch it.
I also tried to take the starter motor to bits but the long cross head screws are very, very stuck in there.
I spent the evening reading about brazing and soldering and I have ordered some 56% silver solder rods and flux and I think I'm going to try and solder it on. I can apparently be done with a good propane torch and the heat is low enough that it doesn't unharden hardened steel. I think that a silver solder joint that covers the entire length of the splines is going to be a lot stronger than a few mm deep weld. I just wonder if I can get it hot enough without destroying the starter motor.
Fortunately, these V6 starter motors seem to be plentiful and cheap.
andyfreelandy
Well-Known Member
Wonder if another make of starter would.give the shorter length that you need ??
today went a bit better as I managed to dismantle the starter motor:-
so I can just heat the bit that I need to silver solder it, not the whole thing:-
the only part of this that seems plastic is the dust shield on that front bearing.
I guess I'll have to put a wet rag over it or something
I can't remove the bearing because one the pinion is fitted it wouldn't be possible to refit the bearing
so I can just heat the bit that I need to silver solder it, not the whole thing:-
the only part of this that seems plastic is the dust shield on that front bearing.
I guess I'll have to put a wet rag over it or something
I can't remove the bearing because one the pinion is fitted it wouldn't be possible to refit the bearing
I have spent a few days playing with different types of solder.
I got some 56% silver, and it is incredibly strong:-
but, I had to get it very, very hot to make it work. An ordinary propane torch wasn't hot enough and I had to go to MAP X gas. I think it needs something like 650 deg C.
The part that would need heating up contains a spring and bearing that has a plastic dust shield and I think that they would be ruined.
Today I bought some 60/40 lead tin solder and flux and tried that. I flowed into clean steel quite nicely but isn't as strong as the silver solder.
My friend Ben also had some old "plumbers lead" solder sitting around so I tried that too. It seems to have a higher melting temperature than the 60/40 but I just couldn't get it to flow.
So, I went with the 60/40 lead tin.
I started the engine maybe ten times with it and then removed the motor to have a look and it seems fine
I got some 56% silver, and it is incredibly strong:-
but, I had to get it very, very hot to make it work. An ordinary propane torch wasn't hot enough and I had to go to MAP X gas. I think it needs something like 650 deg C.
The part that would need heating up contains a spring and bearing that has a plastic dust shield and I think that they would be ruined.
Today I bought some 60/40 lead tin solder and flux and tried that. I flowed into clean steel quite nicely but isn't as strong as the silver solder.
My friend Ben also had some old "plumbers lead" solder sitting around so I tried that too. It seems to have a higher melting temperature than the 60/40 but I just couldn't get it to flow.
So, I went with the 60/40 lead tin.
I started the engine maybe ten times with it and then removed the motor to have a look and it seems fine
andyfreelandy
Well-Known Member
Pop the belt off. Sounds like alternator bearing.
I removed both belts (PAS and alternator). The noise stays the same.
andyfreelandy
Well-Known Member
Not that then !!
Will listen again.
Will listen again.
The noise definitely varies with input revs, so it's something that's spinning at input speed.
When I looked at this before I noticed that in D but stationary the noise is still there.
The interesting thing about D and stationary is that in that scenario the input shaft is at 0rpm with full engine speed being taken up by the torque converter.
As far as I know in D but stationary, the only components turning are the torque converter (but only input to it) and the oil pump.
I don't think that this noise is being made by the torque converter because internal components are spinning relative to each other, so on a light load, and probably in N, the whole torque converter will properly be spinning together as one unit with little differential between input and output, whereas with a load, or in D but stationary, the speed differential across the torque converter will be much higher, so I would expect the noise to change, but it doesn't.
So basically I think that this must be the oil pump or some other component that spins at oil pump speed.
The way it comes and goes sounds to me like a bearing that's very loose and rattling around or something like that.
I think that if something was rubbing then it would have worn itself away by now.
When I looked at this before I noticed that in D but stationary the noise is still there.
The interesting thing about D and stationary is that in that scenario the input shaft is at 0rpm with full engine speed being taken up by the torque converter.
As far as I know in D but stationary, the only components turning are the torque converter (but only input to it) and the oil pump.
I don't think that this noise is being made by the torque converter because internal components are spinning relative to each other, so on a light load, and probably in N, the whole torque converter will properly be spinning together as one unit with little differential between input and output, whereas with a load, or in D but stationary, the speed differential across the torque converter will be much higher, so I would expect the noise to change, but it doesn't.
So basically I think that this must be the oil pump or some other component that spins at oil pump speed.
The way it comes and goes sounds to me like a bearing that's very loose and rattling around or something like that.
I think that if something was rubbing then it would have worn itself away by now.
GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
To me doesn't sound like something that is to 'internal' - eg inside the torque converter, gearbox or engine.
It does sound like a dry/worn bearing, but also could just be something rattling, resonating at RPM - seeing the heat shield there - even something like that - the bolts on then often rust out and break when undone and the shield becomes loose when its not held in with all the designed bolts.
It does sound like a dry/worn bearing, but also could just be something rattling, resonating at RPM - seeing the heat shield there - even something like that - the bolts on then often rust out and break when undone and the shield becomes loose when its not held in with all the designed bolts.
I went for a bit of a drive with a friend this morning and got it warm.
Went back to the garage and got it level (previously it was a bit nose up) and warm (previously I think it was cold) and I had to add a whole litre of ATF before it started coming out of the level plug.
So either I have a big leak or big incompetence.
There's no red drips on the ground so......
Anyway it drives great now.
There is a still a slight whine from somewhere over 2000rpm so I'll have to take the belts off again but at least that horrible noise has gone.
Went back to the garage and got it level (previously it was a bit nose up) and warm (previously I think it was cold) and I had to add a whole litre of ATF before it started coming out of the level plug.
So either I have a big leak or big incompetence.
There's no red drips on the ground so......
Anyway it drives great now.
There is a still a slight whine from somewhere over 2000rpm so I'll have to take the belts off again but at least that horrible noise has gone.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Brilliant mate,
well done on such a huge project. You must be well chuffed to get it running but even more so that it runs so well. Believe me I understand the concern that doing the conversion might result in a car that drives but is not pleasant to be in. I was listening closely to the gear change and revs and it all sounded great. I had wondered would the 1.8 have enough torque to match the auto box but it looks like it does.
I'm sure you'll get the other issues sorted and this can be a very nice daily.
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Alibro
Well-Known Member
Is it possible the starter is still engaged?
It's not perfect, but I quite like it.Brilliant mate,
I was listening closely to the gear change and revs and it all sounded great. I had wondered would the 1.8 have enough torque to match the auto box but it looks like it does.
I'm sure you'll get the other issues sorted and this can be a very nice daily.
i think that maybe the gearbox assumes that the engine has more torque than it does, so it does take a fair bit of accelerator depression before it "kicks down", but I actually quite like that. I can actually use what torque the engine does have without it dropping a gear and revving up.
I think it would suit a turbo conversion really well, but I have no plans to do that. I have got a set of Rover 75 turbo pistons stashed away though.
One think that's quite interesting is that the "sport" or manual mode is a real manual mode. It is possible to put it manually into 5th and then give it 100% throttle and the gearbox obediently stays in 5th. I haven't seen that before. It will only drop to 4th if the speed gets too low for 5th.
If you drive it gently at 30mph it pretty much goes straight up to 4th gear and holds it which is really nice.
On the Paddington flyover which is a 30mph speed limit with average speed cameras, if I push my luck to about 32mph it will even hold 5th.
Motorway cruising at 70mph is about 3000rpm which doesn't seem too bad.
I do think that I have a bit of engine vibration so maybe one day I'll have to balance the flex plate and torque converter better.
SWMBO drove it on Sunday morning and absolutely loved it.
She's been driving manual cars for 27 years and only drove an auto once, many years ago and didn't like it.
But she adapted to this immediately and straight away she's driving it better than her TD4.
Sunday afternoon I got an Android head unit working in it.
Next jobs are to seal up a slight exhaust blow and find a good prop shaft and try it offroad, and paint the sills.
