Z

zefrench

Active Member
Hi all

I have a 2002 V6 Freelander that I am very convinced the head gasket on the head of cylinder 1,3,5 has gone.

I loose roughly 250 ml of coolant every 50ish km.

The thermostat has been changed to Kaiser's excellent aluminium one.

I pressure tested the expansion bottle cap, it does let pressure out at 16 PSI. The coolant system holds pressure as well when pressure tested.

When I run the engine at idle, the coolant system does not over-pressurize, but as soon as I go over 2000 RPM, the pressure rises. I stopped the test at 19 PSI, I did not want to break anything. I cannot think of anything else that would raise the pressure so high.


I also did a compression test, and after adjusting value (the Lisle compression tester I own is known for being +20 psi over) I get the following

2: 173 4: 174 6: 175
1: 175 3: 126 5: 182


I did a chemical test, but maybe I did not wait long enough, it turned green but not yellow. Other then a cylinder leak test, what other tests could I do?

There is no "mayo" in the oil.

I live in Canada so parts are always pricey to ship so I want to run as many tests as possible.
 
The engine isn't know for it's crank case breathing abilities so no condensation/ mayo in the oil normally discounts a failing HG.
You have 1 cylinder low on compression, all should be 175 Psi + or - 5%.
But that could be valve related and a red herring.
I'd check for leaks and make sure that the pressure cap holds over 18 Psi and the tank isn't cracked.
 
when i do a compression test, I do a couple of initial tests to get an average value. I then pour some oil into the cylinder and redo the test. if its a ring issue you get a much higher reading. if its a valve issue nothing changes.
 
Lowbank said:
when i do a compression test, I do a couple of initial tests to get an average value. I then pour some oil into the cylinder and redo the test. if its a ring issue you get a much higher reading. if its a valve issue nothing changes.
Click to expand...

Quite correct.
That's a pretty standard test tbh.
The KV6 doesn't suffer ring/ piston problems as a rule. It can suffer sticky valves on rare occasions.
 
If the HG goes between cylinder and Water jacket, you will not get water in the oil. However, you will get a low compression reading on the affected pot. Also, it will tend to over-pressurise the cooling system leading to water loss.
With the description you have given that would be my first suspicion. The pressurisation is a major clue.
You could also try running cold at idle with pressure cap off and revving it gently - sometimes you can see bubbles of combustion vapours coming out of the header tank. You can often smell them as well as exhaust type smell - in some case you can see it.
A coolant pressure test is often not indicative in these cases as it takes a high pressure differential to cause the transfer. At the moment, it only seems to be a one way transfer - pot (cylinder) to water jacket.

You could also try a leakdown tester on that pot at TDC - just wind it up to the compressor limit and look for bubbles in the expansion tank !
Sorry to sound negative - but..
:(
 
Joe_H said:
If the HG goes between cylinder and Water jacket, you will not get water in the oil. However, you will get a low compression reading on the affected pot. Also, it will tend to over-pressurise the cooling system leading to water loss.
With the description you have given that would be my first suspicion. The pressurisation is a major clue.
You could also try running cold at idle with pressure cap off and revving it gently - sometimes you can see bubbles of combustion vapours coming out of the header tank. You can often smell them as well as exhaust type smell - in some case you can see it.
A coolant pressure test is often not indicative in these cases as it takes a high pressure differential to cause the transfer. At the moment, it only seems to be a one way transfer - pot (cylinder) to water jacket.

You could also try a leakdown tester on that pot at TDC - just wind it up to the compressor limit and look for bubbles in the expansion tank !
Sorry to sound negative - but..
:(
Click to expand...
I do tend to agree here. However I have often found that although there is no actual direct link between the fire rings and the oil ways. Water will dribble out of the leak after shut down and enter the sump via the bore.
Like I said, the crank case on the V6 isn't very well ventilated, leading to emulsified oil/ water on the filler cap.
It does sound like the HG is leaking combustion gasses into the coolant though.
The test is as Joe said. Run the engine hard from cold and watch for pressure build up. If there is pressurisation when cold. It's kind of conclusive that the HG has begun to fail.
 
Joe_H said:
If the HG goes between cylinder and Water jacket, you will not get water in the oil. However, you will get a low compression reading on the affected pot. Also, it will tend to over-pressurise the cooling system leading to water loss.
With the description you have given that would be my first suspicion. The pressurisation is a major clue.
You could also try running cold at idle with pressure cap off and revving it gently - sometimes you can see bubbles of combustion vapours coming out of the header tank. You can often smell them as well as exhaust type smell - in some case you can see it.
A coolant pressure test is often not indicative in these cases as it takes a high pressure differential to cause the transfer. At the moment, it only seems to be a one way transfer - pot (cylinder) to water jacket.

You could also try a leakdown tester on that pot at TDC - just wind it up to the compressor limit and look for bubbles in the expansion tank !
Sorry to sound negative - but..
:(
Click to expand...

I will try to look for bubbles next. To confirm my understanding of a leakdown test, if I put a leakdown tester on the cylinder and I put a pressure tester on the expansion tank, if the pressure goes up on the expansion tank, it is leaking through the coolant, and this test will confirm I don't have a leaking valve issue?
 
Nodge68 said:
I do tend to agree here. However I have often found that although there is no actual direct link between the fire rings and the oil ways. Water will dribble out of the leak after shut down and enter the sump via the bore.
Like I said, the crank case on the V6 isn't very well ventilated, leading to emulsified oil/ water on the filler cap.
It does sound like the HG is leaking combustion gasses into the coolant though.
The test is as Joe said. Run the engine hard from cold and watch for pressure build up. If there is pressurisation when cold. It's kind of conclusive that the HG has begun to fail.
Click to expand...

I watched pressure building up to 19 PSI already (I have a pressure tester attached to the expansion tank) What is a safe level to keep testing at? Keep in mind my cap vents at 16 PSI, so with 19 PSI, it would vent already.
 
zefrench said:
I will try to look for bubbles next. To confirm my understanding of a leakdown test, if I put a leakdown tester on the cylinder and I put a pressure tester on the expansion tank, if the pressure goes up on the expansion tank, it is leaking through the coolant, and this test will confirm I don't have a leaking valve issue?
Click to expand...
Hi
No you dont need to do that - here's a brief description of a cylinder leak down tester if you are not familiar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leak-down_tester

As I mentioned above - just wind your compressor up - stick the leak down tester in and open it up for max pressure into the no 3 pot.
Watch for bubbles in the coolant system.

Hope that makes sense ?
Joe
 
zefrench said:
I watched pressure building up to 19 PSI already (I have a pressure tester attached to the expansion tank) What is a safe level to keep testing at? Keep in mind my cap vents at 16 PSI, so with 19 PSI, it would vent already.
Click to expand...
Don't do any more of that testing - you know it is pressurising, thats all you need to know, the actual pressure it can reach if you close off the system with a pressure gauge and a leaking hg to water gallery WILL damage piping etc and probably blow the cooling res apart ! - no need to do that at all. keep the res cap off for the tests now.
 
A leak down test won't be conclusive for a leaking HG unless the block and head is up to temp and you blow in air at high temp (more than 300C) and pressure (more than 300psi). The leak down test is good to confirm valve or ring leakage.

With what you know now I would be ripping both heads off. Whatever is wrong with one cylinder is highly likely to be impacting others soon. I would put money on a small leak from combustion gasses to the water jacket. It won't stay small for long and as it gets worse it will damage the head and liner/block more than it has so far.
 
As for parts in North America my go-to dealer is Atlantic British in the US. Their prices are generally half that of Canadian dealers. (My local dealer doesn't have a clue about Freelanders. They mainly do Range Rover warranty work-Thats where the money is!) Atlantic British has a good website with quite a few Freelander how-to videos. Shipping is quick. I live 10km from the border so I pick up my orders in the US but they do ship to Canada. Otherwise shipping from the UK works well for small parcels. If you need bigger stuff shipped airfreight shipping prices are brutal. No matter where you buy your head gaskets, get quality. You dont want to do the job twice! If you havent changed the belts for a while it would pay to do the belts and water pump at the same time.
 
Once your heads are off you may have some options for best results.

I probably have a K16 rebuild coming up, these represent my understanding of the right thing to do.

If the liner protrusion is level to 3 thou up and consistent around the bores and between bores, the MLS gaskets are best.
If there is variation in protrusion then an elastomer may be better. As for K16 engines, if protrusion varies I would grind the top of the block and liners to correct it, but that is just me approach.

Unlike a K16, if you take any material amount off the face of the block or head you will need a thicker HG and/or a shim. I have seen thicker gaskets available.

By default I would go with this...
https://www.dmgrs.co.uk/products/ro...mbelt-kit-oem-fits-45-zs-75-zt-2-0-and-2-5-v6

They also have one without the belt kit. I have found their shipping to New Zealand to be OK and their quality seems to be great.
 
Tony Reeves said:
A leak down test won't be conclusive for a leaking HG unless the block and head is up to temp and you blow in air at high temp (more than 300C) and pressure (more than 300psi). The leak down test is good to confirm valve or ring leakage.

With what you know now I would be ripping both heads off. Whatever is wrong with one cylinder is highly likely to be impacting others soon. I would put money on a small leak from combustion gasses to the water jacket. It won't stay small for long and as it gets worse it will damage the head and liner/block more than it has so far.
Click to expand...
Hi Tony,
I would actually disagree. It WILL be totally conclusive if there are bubbles from the expansion tank - I am not talking of a 'normal' leak down test. I am simply saying use the rig to pressurise the cylinder to the limit of the compressor and ignore any other gauge ! - let the compressor run.
All you are looking for is bubbles in the expansion tank.
The other simple way is to run the engine cold with the reservoir cap off and also watch for bubbles.
Based on the symptoms described I would also call it as HGF. However I would not hesitate to confirm my diagnosis by such simple and rapid tests. If there is no Compressor or rig to attach it to the pot - for example - an LDT.... then the use of the engine itself takes seconds to do.
Joe
 
Joe_H said:
Hi Tony,
I would actually disagree. It WILL be totally conclusive if there are bubbles from the expansion tank - I am not talking of a 'normal' leak down test. I am simply saying use the rig to pressurise the cylinder to the limit of the compressor and ignore any other gauge ! - let the compressor run.
All you are looking for is bubbles in the expansion tank.
The other simple way is to run the engine cold with the reservoir cap off and also watch for bubbles.
Based on the symptoms described I would also call it as HGF. However I would not hesitate to confirm my diagnosis by such simple and rapid tests. If there is no Compressor or rig to attach it to the pot - for example - an LDT.... then the use of the engine itself takes seconds to do.
Joe
Click to expand...

Agree. My point really was that no bubbles with engine cold (even with high pressure) would not be conclusive that the head gasket was not leaking at any temperature.
 
Tony Reeves said:
Once your heads are off you may have some options for best results.

I probably have a K16 rebuild coming up, these represent my understanding of the right thing to do.

If the liner protrusion is level to 3 thou up and consistent around the bores and between bores, the MLS gaskets are best.
If there is variation in protrusion then an elastomer may be better. As for K16 engines, if protrusion varies I would grind the top of the block and liners to correct it, but that is just me approach.

Unlike a K16, if you take any material amount off the face of the block or head you will need a thicker HG and/or a shim. I have seen thicker gaskets available.

By default I would go with this...
https://www.dmgrs.co.uk/products/ro...mbelt-kit-oem-fits-45-zs-75-zt-2-0-and-2-5-v6

They also have one without the belt kit. I have found their shipping to New Zealand to be OK and their quality seems to be great.
Click to expand...

The KV6 now uses a MLS gasket from the factory. There was an elasto gasket available years ago, but it's long since been scrapped.
The KV6 now uses a completely different style of gasket compared to most other automotive engines. When the KV6 was first released, (Rover 800) it had elastopolymer gaskets, similar to the standard K, although the base was a composit material, not stainless. The post 800 KV6 gasket is now actually closer in design to a Japanese motorcycle head gasket. The V6 gaskets now only surround the cylinders, water ways, head bolt holes and oil feed. The rest of the gasket is open to the coolant.
The early KV6 gaskets covered the block completely (see pics below) and may have been the cause of HGF in those early days.
The later design is much better at keeping HGF to a minimum. However the thin gasket are is very easy damage due to low coolant. This is where most KV6 gasket problems start.
This is the early gasket. It's not made anymore, but old stock pops up now and again. DON'T USE!!
Screenshot_20160814-131517.png

This is the latest gasket and the one to use.
Screenshot_20160814-131454.png

This is the kit of parts needed to do the job.
Screenshot_20160814-131226.png
 
Last edited:
Well today I did a few tests with the expansion tank cap removed.

I drove two trips of 20 minutes, let the car cool a few minutes and then removed the expansion tank cap.


If I let the car idle after that trip and without the cap, the coolant level keeps rising and rising until it over flows.

Furthermore, I was about to try another combustion gas test but as you can see in this video




There are bubbles (seen in the tester even though I am not sucking in air) and pressure in the expansion tank.

I am wondering if I need to buy a cylinder leak down tester at this point as I am thinking it is pretty confirmed.

Opinions ?

Thanks again

Martin
 
Last edited:
Are you 100% sure that the cooling system is bled correctly?
If the HG is suspect, I would doubt that you would be able to drive a 20 minute journey, without the water spewing out the cap.
The symptoms you have there look like air in the system that needs bleeding out.
 
Nodge68 said:
Are you 100% sure that the cooling system is bled correctly?
If the HG is suspect, I would doubt that you would be able to drive a 20 minute journey, without the water spewing out the cap.
The symptoms you have there look like air in the system that needs bleeding out.
Click to expand...
If I drive 20 minutes, I have to add coolant after it cools down. The coolant level is always low after a drive longer than 10 minutes.

I just bought an air compressor and I have a leakdown tester on order, so I should be able next weekend to get some air in that cylinder and see.
 
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