ratty
I'm not special I'm limited edition
Yes. my A frame has a braking facility that applys the brakes on the towed vehicle on over run.
Yes. my A frame has a braking facility that applys the brakes on the towed vehicle on over run.
Soloby Rob
Banned
Same here!! but before that I towed with an A frame without auto overun braking for thousands of miles without incident.
We'll soon have to sign a disclaimer to take a ****, each and every bloody time we need to go
Pikey
Dummy Ejection Facilitator..
Very doubtful that it would meet construction and use regs for a trailer. Ok for emergency recovery but that's it i'm afraid.
Soloby Rob
Banned
Here you go mate, have a free bog roll on me cos by god you need it.:tea:
Pikey
Dummy Ejection Facilitator..
For all the thick stupid or just plain braindead tossers on here. perhaps they could try and find some one who can read, and ask them to read and explain the following to them..
Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/107
Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.
Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.
In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.
Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.
The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.
We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:
The Stationery Office Tel:
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN
Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.
EU Directives can be found at:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html
UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html
Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport
I dont dispute what yu say, Pikey, but just one Q - vehicles towed behind a "motorhome" by means of an "A" frame - are they all illegal then, coz i aint seen one fitted with operational brakes.
david451
New Member
For all the thick stupid or just plain braindead tossers on here. perhaps they could try and find some one who can read, and ask them to read and explain the following to them..
Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/107as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).
Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.
Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.
In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.
Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.
The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.
We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:
The Stationery Office Tel:
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN
Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.
EU Directives can be found at:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html
UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html
Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport
All that and never shoutid once, must be xmas spirit.
just (sort of) answered my own Q - ie its open to dispute and has yet (to my knowledge) been tested in court...
A-frames: As we understand it a-frames are treated no differently to any other trailer, so virtually every car towed by a-frame would have to be modified to link to the brakes. There is doubt about whether cars can be modified to fully meet appropriate regulations but A-frame suppliers will carry out modifications for you and many motorcaravanners are using such towing arrangements every day.
There is an argument that says an a-frame towed car is a trailer but since it can never have auto-reverse overrun brakes fitted it must then be illegal in all cases. A counter argument runs that says, such a car is outside the trailer legislation so auto-reverse and/or overrun braking is not required though under what regulation this then falls is open to question. We are given to understand that different regulations apply, or are applied differently, to recovery vehicles.
"...all trailers built since 1989 have to have auto-reverse brakes meeting the braking efficiencies laid down in EC directive 71/320. This is achieved in normal trailers and caravans by having special wheel hubs which disengage the brake when turning backwards. This is clearly impossible with a towed car and it is thus impossible for a towed car to meet directive 71/320 as incorporated into the UK Construction and Use Regulations. A-frame sellers rely on the fact that neither of the above points has yet been tested by a court case."
A-frames: As we understand it a-frames are treated no differently to any other trailer, so virtually every car towed by a-frame would have to be modified to link to the brakes. There is doubt about whether cars can be modified to fully meet appropriate regulations but A-frame suppliers will carry out modifications for you and many motorcaravanners are using such towing arrangements every day.
There is an argument that says an a-frame towed car is a trailer but since it can never have auto-reverse overrun brakes fitted it must then be illegal in all cases. A counter argument runs that says, such a car is outside the trailer legislation so auto-reverse and/or overrun braking is not required though under what regulation this then falls is open to question. We are given to understand that different regulations apply, or are applied differently, to recovery vehicles.
"...all trailers built since 1989 have to have auto-reverse brakes meeting the braking efficiencies laid down in EC directive 71/320. This is achieved in normal trailers and caravans by having special wheel hubs which disengage the brake when turning backwards. This is clearly impossible with a towed car and it is thus impossible for a towed car to meet directive 71/320 as incorporated into the UK Construction and Use Regulations. A-frame sellers rely on the fact that neither of the above points has yet been tested by a court case."
ratty
I'm not special I'm limited edition
Just to add fuel to the fire. Late last year approximately 50 recovery and salvage vehicles were stopped by VOSA and given notices of intended prosecution for towing on spectacle lifts. As yet they haven't managed to successfuly prosecute any of those stopped. The spec lift also does not apply any brakes to the rolling wheels of the vehicle being towed.
As a precautionary measure I sent DVLA some emails to their legal team. They replied to the first couple of emails because I witheld the full facts and what my job was. As soon as I gave them precise details they ended correspondance with me. As such I am imune to prosecution on all points that I brough up as they were unable/refused to answer my questions.
This is one of the emails that they refused to answer.
Sent: Friday, 25 January, 2008 5:21:37 PM
Subject: Re: Towing and Trailers
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]I am a vehicle recovery driver and as such I am required to spec lift cars and vans in the course of my work. In the past I have been pulled over or questioned by the police, dvla and yourselves (vosa) and on each occasion I have been given different answers and opinions. According to the police a broken down vehicle is not a trailer because a trailer is a vehicle without its own form of propulsion. It, according to the police, requires tax, mot and insurance to front suspend (spec) the vehicle as it is still a vehicle. DVLA agree. VOSA however say that a vehicle being towed by another vehicle is a trailer and therefore does not require tax, mot and insurance.
Also on some occasions the police and yourselves have raised concerns that only 750kg are allowed to remain on the highway due to braking regulations. This being the case why can I tow on a rigid bar or A-frame but not on the speclift?
On other occasions they have stated that because it is a car/van and not a trailer this does not apply.
Also a broken down vehicle according to the road lighting regulations for trailers does not require lights in the same way a trailer would. Therefore it isn't a trailer. As a driving licence specifies the word trailer I have had both VOSA and the police unable to answer what licence I require to tow the vehicle because there is no category available on my licence for 'Broken down vehicle'.
VOSA and the police have also told me that I can move a vehicle to a place of safety even if it is overweight but are unable to explain what a place of safety is.e.g If it is 2a.m. and I am towing a van off the motorway that is being driven by a lone female and it puts my rear axle overweight, Is a place of safety the first junction that I come to that has no lighting and leaves a lone female very vulnerable or 7 miles further on to the next services. In my mind a place of safety is the services.
I have been doing my job for over 10 years and never had any issues with the police or ministry of transport checks. Now suddenly every time I am checked I get a different story/veiw/interpretation. Who is right once and for all.
I wish to remain within the law but bearing in mind that everytime I speak to a government agency I get a different answer I no longer know what the law is.
many thanks
Their refusal to answer proves just how much of a grey area it is.
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