Bern · Mar 10, 2019

Hi All,

I'm looking to do the timing chain, tensioner, sprockets etc on my series 3 diesel.

I can see that it's quite easy to get a kit for petrol models up to 1974, but not diesels.

I thought that all the timing equipment was the same on 2.25 petrol and diesel engines? I've got an S2/S2A parts catalogue, the part numbers for diesel and petrol look to be the same.

Though mine is a '72 it was originally a petrol, I've no idea what age the engine is. The block is a light blue, suggesting an MOD reconditioned engine? The head is red, so that's a 90/110 head? I need to find some numbers I guess!

Probably going to be safest for me to take it apart and see what I've got before ordering any parts. Does anyone know what the difference is between post and pre 1974 engines?

Cheers,

Bern.

adrian hogg · Mar 10, 2019

not sure about parts but would also change the fuel pump drive bush on the worm gear. They tend to wear and let the drive move sideways slightly which retards the pump timing causing blue/white smoke. Make sure you understand how to set the cam on exhaust peak when you build it or you will struggle to get pump timing correct.

adrian hogg · Mar 10, 2019

just thought you might contact Turner Engineering if they still about they used to stock most engine bits

Bern · Mar 10, 2019

adrian hogg said:
not sure about parts but would also change the fuel pump drive bush on the worm gear. They tend to wear and let the drive move sideways slightly which retards the pump timing causing blue/white smoke. Make sure you understand how to set the cam on exhaust peak when you build it or you will struggle to get pump timing correct.

Ah, thanks for that. It's due to smoking that I want to do the timing, the pump is advanced as far as it will go currently.

Bern · Apr 13, 2019

I've just opened up the timing case, so I need to order the parts!

Checking online and eBay I can get DA1337 which is timing chain kit for a series 2/2A/3 petrol up to 1974. As far as I can see the timing parts for the diesel and petrol are the same, and go past 1974! These kits work out cheaper than buying the parts individually. Is this just a lazy description (they all say the same), or is there a difference?

divie · Apr 14, 2019

I do not recall differences around those years but I have been away from series for a few years now. I suggest buying the kit, making copious cups of tea and spend a day doing the job. If it runs better afterwards it will be very satisfying. Have you checked the "Pop off" pressures on the injectors ? They shoul be around 130/135 bar and make a huge difference to performance and smoke. I have had a set of professionally refurbished injectors set anywhere between 120 and 170 bar on the set. Once I got the setting kit it was much better.

wireman · Apr 14, 2019

Give the vendor your engine number that will give them the age. The later 5 MB engines were metric or a mix of Imperial and metric I think, so its important to get an accurate kit if at all possible.

Bern · Apr 14, 2019

divie said:
I do not recall differences around those years but I have been away from series for a few years now. I suggest buying the kit, making copious cups of tea and spend a day doing the job. If it runs better afterwards it will be very satisfying. Have you checked the "Pop off" pressures on the injectors ? They shoul be around 130/135 bar and make a huge difference to performance and smoke. I have had a set of professionally refurbished injectors set anywhere between 120 and 170 bar on the set. Once I got the setting kit it was much better.

The injectors are new, so hopefully the pressures are good! Their wasn't any difference in the smoke produced after I changed them, though it does run and start better.

wireman said:
Give the vendor your engine number that will give them the age. The later 5 MB engines were metric or a mix of Imperial and metric I think, so its important to get an accurate kit if at all possible.

That's a good idea, I've not actually seen the engine number yet, I've no idea what age the engine is or if it's a 3 or 5 bearing! I guess with the engine number I should be able to get an approximate age.

divie · Apr 14, 2019

The 5 bearing engine has a "Herringbone" pattern of ribs cast into the lower crankcase sides. They where originally painted in a teracotter (Spelling?) colour.

jamesmartin · Apr 14, 2019

Bern said:
I've just opened up the timing case, so I need to order the parts!

Checking online and eBay I can get DA1337 which is timing chain kit for a series 2/2A/3 petrol up to 1974. As far as I can see the timing parts for the diesel and petrol are the same, and go past 1974! These kits work out cheaper than buying the parts individually. Is this just a lazy description (they all say the same), or is there a difference?

the diesel cam sprocket has iirc 6 keyways vernier located as cam timing needs to more accurate than a petrol, the key ways make up parts of a tooth

Bern · Apr 15, 2019

divie said:
The 5 bearing engine has a "Herringbone" pattern of ribs cast into the lower crankcase sides. They where originally painted in a teracotter (Spelling?) colour.

The block on mine is light blue, so I think that's MOD, and could be 3 or 5 bearing - I'll check for the pattern though. The head is terracotta but I think I'm correct in saying that the later heads fit to earlier blocks!

jamesmartin said:
the diesel cam sprocket has iirc 6 keyways vernier located as cam timing needs to more accurate than a petrol, the key ways make up parts of a tooth

Interesting, my 2A parts catalogue has the same part number for both petrol and diesel sprocket (276133). Maybe this is the change that happened in 1974? It looks like the sprocket that I have, but I haven't removed the bolt yet so I can't confirm the number of key ways.

It was originally a petrol, I've no idea when it was converted and of course the engine could be older or newer tan the Landy!

wireman · Apr 15, 2019

Get the engine number off the engine block NOT the V5/logbook as that could be wrong too.

Bern · Apr 15, 2019

wireman said:
Get the engine number off the engine block NOT the V5/logbook as that could be wrong too.

I've just been out and taken a look. It actually matches the log book, which is nice! It begins S251, looking around the net I've found that 251 is a petrol engine number, which is weird!

As already mentioned, it was originally a petrol, Could it be that somebody has put a diesel head on a petrol block. They'd have to change the pistons, and I'd have thought the camshaft as well, which sounds like a lot of work compared to just changing the engine completely. Perhaps I'm better off getting another engine rather than trying to work out what's going on here!

I've got a 12J in the garage, but it's got a melted piston(!!) and I sold the fuel pump :-(.

wireman · Apr 15, 2019

Bern said:
I've just been out and taken a look. It actually matches the log book, which is nice! It begins S251, looking around the net I've found that 251 is a petrol engine number, which is weird!

As already mentioned, it was originally a petrol, Could it be that somebody has put a diesel head on a petrol block. They'd have to change the pistons, and I'd have thought the camshaft as well, which sounds like a lot of work compared to just changing the engine completely. Perhaps I'm better off getting another engine rather than trying to work out what's going on here!

I've got a 12J in the garage, but it's got a melted piston(!!) and I sold the fuel pump :-(.

That's a right 'bitsa' you got there. You could order the timing kit for that engine number then when it comes compare the components to check they match.
IIRC it is entirely possible to change a petrol block to diesel providing you swap the internals over as required. Though a lot of work.

Bern · Apr 15, 2019

wireman said:
That's a right 'bitsa' you got there. You could order the timing kit for that engine number then when it comes compare the components to check they match.
IIRC it is entirely possible to change a petrol block to diesel providing you swap the internals over as required. Though a lot of work.

Thanks, I think that's probably the best thing to do. I'm sure that most, if not all of the parts are the same.

Just out of interest, if I put a 12J in a series 3, would I have to move the battery to make room for the injector pump?

Or could I convert it to use the original series pump in place of the servo pump and put the series timing case on the block (assuming the bolt holes line up), though that would mean removing the belt and converting it back to a chain which sounds like a lot of trouble!

wireman · Apr 15, 2019

I have never done a 12j conversion but it would seem easier to move the battery than swap pumps, the 12j might not even work with a series pump anyway (too small?)

Bern · Apr 15, 2019

wireman said:
I have never done a 12j conversion but it would seem easier to move the battery than swap pumps, the 12j might not even work with a series pump anyway (too small?)

Yes, good point! Moving the battery shouldn't be a huge problem, I just wanted to keep the series "look".

jamesmartin · Apr 15, 2019

Bern said:
The block on mine is light blue, so I think that's MOD, and could be 3 or 5 bearing - I'll check for the pattern though. The head is terracotta but I think I'm correct in saying that the later heads fit to earlier blocks!

Interesting, my 2A parts catalogue has the same part number for both petrol and diesel sprocket (276133). Maybe this is the change that happened in 1974? It looks like the sprocket that I have, but I haven't removed the bolt yet so I can't confirm the number of key ways.

It was originally a petrol, I've no idea when it was converted and of course the engine could be older or newer tan the Landy![/QUO

jamesmartin · Apr 15, 2019

Bern said:
The block on mine is light blue, so I think that's MOD, and could be 3 or 5 bearing - I'll check for the pattern though. The head is terracotta but I think I'm correct in saying that the later heads fit to earlier blocks!

Interesting, my 2A parts catalogue has the same part number for both petrol and diesel sprocket (276133). Maybe this is the change that happened in 1974? It looks like the sprocket that I have, but I haven't removed the bolt yet so I can't confirm the number of key ways.

It was originally a petrol, I've no idea when it was converted and of course the engine could be older or newer tan the Landy!

series 3 petrol sprocket is 568474,diesel with multiple key ways 276133, which are unless your very lucky essential to get timing correct

Bern · Apr 15, 2019

jamesmartin said:
series 3 petrol sprocket is 568474,diesel with multiple key ways 276133, which are unless your very lucky essential to get timing correct

If,as I suspect, mine is a bizarre mix of petrol and diesel engine maybe I have the incorrect sprocket which has put the timing out, and why it smokes so much!

After a quick search it looks like both 568474 and 276133 have both been superceded by ETC5551 which has just one keyway.

Does it need multiple keyways though? If the chain hasn't stretched and the tensioner is working properly then the relationship between the crank and cam sprockets should be correct and so the cam timing is correct. There is adjustment to alter the pump timing. I can't quite see from your picture but it looks like there is some kind of "subtle" adjustment between the central body and toothed part of that sprocket?

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