jamesmartin said:

theres no need to go over the top when it comes to air versus coils ,coils done right like anything on a vehicle isnt dangerous,its just as likely that an air bag will blow causing accident ,it does happen ive had quite a few in ,but luckely not in critical situation

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Of course the main point is totally missed by those who argue coils are better. The vehicle was designed to run on air springs. That design encorporates a built in safety feature in that at speeds over 50 mph, the suspension squats down to improve directional stability and roll resistance in aggressive manoeuvres. When fitting coils that safety feature is removed. A P38 fitted with coils cannot therefore be as safe as one with correctly functioning air suspension. As for air bags blowing at speed. That should never happen. I don't do MOT tests any more, but if a Range Rover had been presented to me for MOT with badly cracked and worn air bags it would fail. Just as it would for badly deteriorated and cracked rubber brake lines. The air bag is a vital suspension component and should be treated as such in an MOT test. Air suspension is reasonably simple to maintain if you know what your doing. But of course can be initially expensive to put right if it has been neglected. That is possibly the reason people go for the less safe but relitivly mantainance free coils. But always remember to tick the yes box on your insurance application, the one that asks, has the vehicle been modified, if you don't technically you have no insurance.

im not saying i prefer either, but they can and do go suddenly ,properly functioning goes with both systems ,i wouldnt persuade someone to put springs on but but equally done properly with sligthly stiffer ride to couteract lowering its not fair to say its inherinately unsafe vehicle ,as you say done badly like any job ,i get people who will pay to fit stainless bolts but wont pay for new discs ,with new pads when clearly the old ones have scoring ,rust etc thats potentially more dangerous

jamesmartin said:

im not saying i prefer either, but they can and do go suddenly ,properly functioning goes with both systems ,i wouldnt persuade someone to put springs on but but equally done properly with sligthly stiffer ride to couteract lowering its not fair to say its inherinately unsafe vehicle ,as you say done badly like any job ,i get people who will pay to fit stainless bolts but wont pay for new discs ,with new pads when clearly the old ones have scoring ,rust etc thats potentially more dangerous

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I am sorry James but a P38 on coils IS less stable than one on air. Of that there can be no doubt. You perminently raise the CofG with no provision for lowering it as the air suspension has. So it has to be less stable at certain speeds and in certain manoeuvres. Simple as that. I am not saying don't do it, just pointing out the obvious difference.

It's all opinion and I respect all those offered but without any empirical evidence such as 'x' number of accidents were caused by the fact that a vehicle was converted from air to coils as compared to 'y' number of accidents without conversion, it will remain just that; opinion. Is that sufficient to categorically state that it is less safe to have coils springs?

I'm still interested to learn how the P38 was 'designed' for air springs and what are the fundamental differences that make it so? I thought the designers tried the air springs on the coil sprung classic and they seemed to work so they put them on the P38; simples!

Baloney999 said:

It's all opinion and I respect all those offered but without any empirical evidence such as 'x' number of accidents were caused by the fact that a vehicle was converted from air to coils as compared to 'y' number of accidents without conversion, it will remain just that; opinion. Is that sufficient to categorically state that it is less safe to have coils springs?

I'm still interested to learn how the P38 was 'designed' for air springs and what are the fundamental differences that make it so? I thought the designers tried the air springs on the coil sprung classic and they seemed to work so they put them on the P38; simples!

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The P38 was designed around the EAS system - hence it was designed for air springs. Coils were never considered in the design.

I understand that the position of the airbags is not conducive to a stable coil spring configuration.

There were some vague figures on the RR.net forum about the percentage of wrecked (ie rolled) P38s in breakers yards on coils vs air sprung ones but I can't be bothered to try and find the link now. Suffice to say that most of the rolled P38s had undergone a coil spring conversion.

Even aside from the safety issue - coils will always just be a compromise. You can't change height so depending on the length of the springs fitted it will either be good off road and very unstable on road, or slightly stable onroad but unable to even get over speed bumps.

You also lose the self levelling, so towing and load carrying will affect the stability and ride as the rear end will sag.

It's a no brainer really. I don't understand why this topic keeps coming up.

kooky_guy said:

The P38 was designed around the EAS system - hence it was designed for air springs. Coils were never considered in the design.

I understand that the position of the airbags is not conducive to a stable coil spring configuration.

There were some vague figures on the RR.net forum about the percentage of wrecked (ie rolled) P38s in breakers yards on coils vs air sprung ones but I can't be bothered to try and find the link now. Suffice to say that most of the rolled P38s had undergone a coil spring conversion.

Even aside from the safety issue - coils will always just be a compromise. You can't change height so depending on the length of the springs fitted it will either be good off road and very unstable on road, or slightly stable onroad but unable to even get over speed bumps.

You also lose the self levelling, so towing and load carrying will affect the stability and ride as the rear end will sag.

It's a no brainer really. I don't understand why this topic keeps coming up.

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I really do agree on this. It is a no brainer.

IF YOU RAISE THE CENTRE OF GRAVITY THE VEHICLE IS LESS STABLE. Not opinion. FACT.

IF YOU LOWER THE CENTRE OF GRAVITY THE VEHICLE IS MORE STABLE. Not opinion. FACT.

If you have a self levelling system, automatic ride height adjustment, regardless of load, that keeps the vehicle poised and balanced. It is more stable than one that does not have that feature. FACT.

It keeps coming up because people who change to coils for whatever reason try to defend their decision with stupid arguements. Well i am sorry, but i cut my hand off and had a hook fitted because i got tired of cutting my finger nails now and again, is not a good arguement.

Agree with Wammers and Kooky 100%.

Look at the main general costs in overhauling the EAS:

Replacement springs approx. £60 a corner...last around 7 years with normal road use. How many tyres have been bought at £150 per corner during that time ???

Replacement Compressor seal kit approx. £15 lasts around 3-4 years.

Worst case scenario...Valve block seals, kit costs approx £15.

My P38 is 14 years old and has 126K on the clock. During that time, I have replaced the air springs once (3 years ago), Compressor seals 3 times, Dryer dessicant once, Inlet and exhaust filters 3 times and have never had the valve block apart or replaced any of the height sensors. Total cost around £325, a lot less than the cost of a coil conversion, a better and more stable ride.
Strange that just after BMW passed on the Rover Group and went back on their own that the X5 range also had EAS fitted.

Like Wammers says..."This topic has been done to death"

I've just read this post as I'm on the verge of removing the EAS of my P38.

I recently got the EAS fault message on my display last time this occurred was about 4 years ago it turned out to be the compressor so replaced it after the garage told me it was the valve block first (long story). So this time thinking it was the same I bought a compressor and mey mate changed it over. When you start the car the compressor fires for about 1 sec then nothing he changed over the valve block same thing after some playing about he now has the compressor running ok but nothing happens and turns out the the compressor in the car was fine after all as is bot valve blocks.

I'm no use with mechanics at all. and don't have a clue what could be causing this problem. Has anyone else encountered this issue.

Rather than just replacing bits at random you need to have the fault message read - that'll give you some indication of what the problem actually is.

It could be anything!

I take it you don't have access to the EAS Unlock software? It's free - just need a suitable laptop and cable. The error message probaby won't tell you exactly what is wrong - they need a bit of interpreting but there's plenty of help available on here for that.

You could take it to an indie to get the fault read but that'll probly cost you £50. Or someone on here might do it for you if they're nearby.

Guy

wammers said:

Of course the main point is totally missed by those who argue coils are better. The vehicle was designed to run on air springs. That design encorporates a built in safety feature in that at speeds over 50 mph, the suspension squats down to improve directional stability and roll resistance in aggressive manoeuvres. When fitting coils that safety feature is removed. A P38 fitted with coils cannot therefore be as safe as one with correctly functioning air suspension. As for air bags blowing at speed. That should never happen. I don't do MOT tests any more, but if a Range Rover had been presented to me for MOT with badly cracked and worn air bags it would fail. Just as it would for badly deteriorated and cracked rubber brake lines. The air bag is a vital suspension component and should be treated as such in an MOT test. Air suspension is reasonably simple to maintain if you know what your doing. But of course can be initially expensive to put right if it has been neglected. That is possibly the reason people go for the less safe but relitivly mantainance free coils. But always remember to tick the yes box on your insurance application, the one that asks, has the vehicle been modified, if you don't technically you have no insurance.

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Agreed that EAS IS better but when I was looking at a coil sprung converted one (did not buy it!), I asked my insurance company about the premium and they said it would make no difference to the premium as long as they knew about it . BUT it had to be std height of WOULD count as modded. Might not be that same for every ins co though cus Im with adrian flux, a company known for its tolerence of mods.

wammers said:

Of course the main point is totally missed by those who argue coils are better. The vehicle was designed to run on air springs. That design encorporates a built in safety feature in that at speeds over 50 mph, the suspension squats down to improve directional stability and roll resistance in aggressive manoeuvres. When fitting coils that safety feature is removed. A P38 fitted with coils cannot therefore be as safe as one with correctly functioning air suspension. As for air bags blowing at speed. That should never happen. I don't do MOT tests any more, but if a Range Rover had been presented to me for MOT with badly cracked and worn air bags it would fail. Just as it would for badly deteriorated and cracked rubber brake lines. The air bag is a vital suspension component and should be treated as such in an MOT test. Air suspension is reasonably simple to maintain if you know what your doing. But of course can be initially expensive to put right if it has been neglected. That is possibly the reason people go for the less safe but relitivly mantainance free coils. But always remember to tick the yes box on your insurance application, the one that asks, has the vehicle been modified, if you don't technically you have no insurance.

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Going off topic slightly, I understand what you are saying about maintaining the C of G and that lowering the car at speed will improve stability but where does that leave all the 2" and 3" lifted Disco's and Defenders? Don't the same arguments apply? For example a 300Tdi disco will do 90mph on the motorway if pushed, if it's on a 3" lift the same arguments about stability, C of G etc. are just as relevant, shouldn't we be having the same debate about the dangers(?) of suspension lift kits?

waldershelf said:

Going off topic slightly, I understand what you are saying about maintaining the C of G and that lowering the car at speed will improve stability but where does that leave all the 2" and 3" lifted Disco's and Defenders? Don't the same arguments apply? For example a 300Tdi disco will do 90mph on the motorway if pushed, if it's on a 3" lift the same arguments about stability, C of G etc. are just as relevant, shouldn't we be having the same debate about the dangers(?) of suspension lift kits?

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Totally yes to that, they are made for slow off road use, not for motorway speeds, when they are unstable and dangerous. Someone in the insurance world will cotton on to this eventually. If your using a lifted motor for off road fair enough, it's your loss if it flips. But i am sure a very dim view would be taken if you rolled one on a motorway and wiped out a family. Remember the bloke who killed his kids in an off road modded Landrover which was insured, but deemed totally unsuitable and dangerous for on road use by the court.

I think this will be an increasing issue, personally I'm more in to originality with minor "upgrades" rather than the major off roading stuff that seems to be the general trend. At the end of the day my 90 spends the majority of it's life just being my personal transport. My only real demand on it's capabilities is to be able to get to where I want to be when the snow is on the ground.

My god are we still banging on about this subject.
Fact-I changed mine to coils.
Fact-The car is better and more reliable.
Fact-It is perfectly stable.
Fact-I would do it again.
So all in all I would say I,m perfectly happy and comftorable with mine on coils.
Davie:
I tried to not comment this time but here I am doh:

wammers said:

Totally yes to that, they are made for slow off road use, not for motorway speeds, when they are unstable and dangerous. Someone in the insurance world will cotton on to this eventually. If your using a lifted motor for off road fair enough, it's your loss if it flips. But i am sure a very dim view would be taken if you rolled one on a motorway and wiped out a family. Remember the bloke who killed his kids in an off road modded Landrover which was insured, but deemed totally unsuitable and dangerous for on road use by the court.

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His was dangerous because of the way he'd modified (very badly) it, not because it was modified!


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Gooders70 said:

His was dangerous because of the way he'd modified (very badly) it, not because it was modified!


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And every modded Land Rover is modded properly is it? The three inch lift kits are for off road. Not for flying around twisty country roads or high speed motorway evasive action. P38s on springs are easier to roll than P38s on air FACT. P38s with three inch coil lift kits are even easier to roll. FACT. Raising the CofG makes them easier to tip over. FACT. What planet are you people on?

hi baloney999, i know its a year late and you may not get back to this, but what duty coil springs and shocks were you running on your RR ?. ive just bought a p38 dse 1997 already converted, the springs are odd and the shocks have had it .im going for a terrafirma conversion kit ,but didnt know what duty coils to get ? ive done a bit of homework and think medium duty,standard ride height springs, and pro/sport shocks. i dont tow anything and just wife kids and shopping will be my max weight,any info would be greatly appreciated. regards bob7

I think the lpg is slightly more dangerous than coils

Dislike lpg a lot - coils - well if i had the choice would have avoided but as a RR novice just jumped on one with the coils and it does fine here in the Highlands,

Not a Motorway in sight or even close - soft hat driver anyway

No suspension issues ever - loads of threads regarding airbag troubles.

Does this actually belong here

Davie F said:

Fact-I changed mine to coils.

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It may be a fact but not one in favour of the change itself!

Davie F said:

Fact-The car is better and more reliable.

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Less to go wrong perhaps (in a mechanical but not potential accident sense), but better? Without EAS I couldn't even take my old man down the pub - he wouldn't be able to get in an unlowered P38! Having adjustable suspension is undoubtedly a boon, you are not better off without that function - let alone the self-levelling aspect.
Unless you've gone for dangerously soft (off road bias) springs the axle articulation will have been lessened by the conversion - which again is not "better".

Davie F said:

Fact-It is perfectly stable.

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If your coil conversion is at EAS highway height (which I doubt) with comparable spring rates then yes it's stable (unless you're towing something heavy enough to cause the rear to squat.) In that configuration you now have a lousy off-roader and a nasty harsh ride - what's the point? Buy an estate car.
If it is at EAS "normal" height, or above, it is NOT as stable, you cannot defy physics - your car is much more liable to turn over at speed and will be more affected by crosswinds at speed. It might be stable compared to a blancmange, but it is not stable compared to a EAS equipped P38 at speed. Put the word "FACT" next to your statement as often as you like - it doesn't make it true.

Davie F said:

Fact-I would do it again.

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Again, not an argument in the coil spring conversion's favour! There are serial murderers out there, doesn't mean their first murder was the right thing to do because they repeated the exercise!

If your coil sprung P38 is at "normal" height and you stick to 50mph or less than you are in no danger over a EAS equipped P38. Other than that you are driving a vehicle with compromised stability. Not necessarily dangerous - but not as safe as the standard car.

The same goes for any lifted car, if it's higher than standard - particularly if it has soft springs for additional axle articulation, then it should not be driven at speed on the public highway.

Compare a P38 to a classic on steel springs, the P38 can corner normally at speeds which would put the classic on its roof - the same could probably be said for the L322 over the P38 - it's called progress.

Hi everybody, sorry if I seem late to join this thread. I am running on EAS at the moment and my air springs are due for replacement. I am thinking carefully about coils. One aspect is worrying me. The headlight leveling function is provided by the self leveling suspension. When coils are fitted how do you fit levellers to the headlights? Is this going to be a problem with the new MOT regime?