300bhp/ton said:

I agree. Although in such situations it would be the front wing/bumper of mid point down the side of the vehicle that would be at risk. And as an 88 and a 90 have the same body width. The risk would be equal. But Adv to the 90 as it can turn tighter.

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My Ninety, and my various Series, did have minor panel damage on the sides and wings from work and laning action.
But most of the damage was on the roofs, low branches are a common hazard, and often hidden among softer vegetation.

300bhp/ton said:

As a trend there are more attainable large engine cars in N. America but also other parts of the World such as Asia and Oz.

My parents had a 6.0 litre V12 Jaguar saloon…. In the U.K. and my grandfather had a V8 Range Rover.

And in the USA they did and do sell cars like this:

1.1 to 1.3 litre engines. But nobody really cares or remembers cars like this. Despite them existing.

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You parents obviously weren't as tight fisted as mine!
I think the Oldsmobile Cutlass had a 7 litre V8, not certain, it was a long time ago. I do remember it wasn't very practical as a town car, used to overheat in traffic on occasion, but we enjoyed riding in it.
What's the little Ford? Guessing at a US version of a 2 door Fiesta?

Anaconda said:

I drove down hill on a rutted lane the other day in an original Defender and got stuck or would have been if I didn't have diff lock.
Think a new one would have been too fat.

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This is the main issue l have with my 2022 90.
lt's awesome on road, and fantastic off road. Mine's the basic specification with coil springs and no e-diffs and it's only ever got stuck once, in a muddy field where it basically sank to the axles.

But the vehicle is just a bit too wide. lt struggles on some single track roads let alone bridleways. l mean, it doesn't struggle to get through it's just the foliage hits the sides.

Fortunately branch scratches seem to polish out, according to those on the ND forum, l haven't risked it.

So l think the conclusion to this is

a/The new Defender (on paper) is better in every way than the old Defender

b/This does not mean that it's better than the old Defender

For Greenlaning and such like there's only one choice and it isn't the new model.

For Overlanding the new model is great, so long as it doesn't break down out in the bush, or desert. And then you'll probably be best just setting fire to it, as nobody will be able to get it going again.

With luck, the smoke from the fire (and bang when the lithium stop/start battery explodes) will attract the attention of someone in a 300tdi 110 who will appear, and rescue you.

1/The new model is very good off road
2/The old model is very good off road

lf you get stuck in either, it's your fault and not the vehicle.

The new Defender won't need a new chassis or bulkhead after twenty years. But by then, it will probably have been recycled into drinks cans anyway as nobody will want it at that age.

Land Rover should have built something like the Grenadier, and not the new Defender.

Land Rover will say...sod that, we're selling as many of the new ones as we can make. We even put the price up and they're still selling.

lightning said:

So l think the conclusion to this is

a/The new Defender (on paper) is better in every way than the old Defender

b/This does not mean that it's better than the old Defender

For Greenlaning and such like there's only one choice and it isn't the new model.

For Overlanding the new model is great, so long as it doesn't break down out in the bush, or desert. And then you'll probably be best just setting fire to it, as nobody will be able to get it going again.

With luck, the smoke from the fire (and bang when the lithium stop/start battery explodes) will attract the attention of someone in a 300tdi 110 who will appear, and rescue you.

1/The new model is very good off road
2/The old model is very good off road

lf you get stuck in either, it's your fault and not the vehicle.

The new Defender won't need a new chassis or bulkhead after twenty years. But by then, it will probably have been recycled into drinks cans anyway as nobody will want it at that age.

Land Rover should have built something like the Grenadier, and not the new Defender.

Land Rover will say...sod that, we're selling as many of the new ones as we can make. We put the price up and they're still selling.

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Agree with most of that except they should of built the new Defender but with a different name.
Grenadier sort of seems pretty pointless in this country for popping to B&Q.

lightning said:

So l think the conclusion to this is

a/The new Defender (on paper) is better in every way than the old Defender

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That probably depends on which bit of paper you are reading....

You could argue that a 1971 Range Rover on paper was better in every way than a Series Land Rover. But they are different vehicles built for different purposes.

This is true of the new Defender. It is a completely different vehicle with a different ability set, accepting that there is some cross over and overlap in abilities. But it is not a direct replacement.

e.g. the new Defender can NOT do these things, on paper or otherwise.















As for off road, well the new model relies fully on traction aides, be it the traction control or rear locker. But without these it would struggle. As it lifts wheels in the air a lot and without a traction aid would just sit and be cross axled.







The old Defender has far more 'flex' and articulation. Meaning that it'll be more stable and keep its wheels on the ground better. Thus it doesn't need to rely on traction aids. Hence why LR didn't even offer any until 1998! However, since 1998 you have been able to get traction control. It isn't quite as smooth as the latest system on the new Defender. But it works perfectly fine.

It is also a lot cheaper and easier to upgrade the standard diffs on the old Defender to limited slip or full lockers.

So while it would be perfectly possible to setup or find an obstacle that could stop a non TCS old Defender and have the new one drive right through. I doubt you realistically be able to find anything that would stop a traction controlled equipped old Defender but let the new one carry on its way.

Conversely, I think you could easily setup something that could stop or prevent the new model driving it while an older vehicle good. Largely down to size and stability of the older model.

I'm not taking anything away from the new model, it is great for the type of vehicle it is. But it is so far distant from what the old model was.

As for age, yes you'll not replace a chassis on the new one. Although not all old LR's have had a new chassis. Not even some 70 year old Series 1's. But rust and age will still take their toll on the new model, just look at the rust that is now appearing on L322's and Disco 3's. The trouble is, it is a lot harder to fix on these models, because they haven't got a chassis you can replace.

BTW - another limitation with the new Defender off road:

Yes the new Defender won't do any of that

Apart from the Overlanding, l've seen some pretty impressive L663 Overlanders.

lightning said:

Yes the new Defender won't do any of that

Apart from the Overlanding, l've seen some pretty impressive L663 Overlanders.

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I should think they are a very nice comfortable overland vehicle. Not convinced they are any better than a Disco 3/4 in any discipline. The Disco 3/4 (and L320 RRS) are hugely capable platforms, although obviously no longer new or in production. And the engine lineup in the new Defender is much better than the crank snapping TDV6 in the Disco's.

It will be interesting to see what happens price wise with the new Defender. I can see one being a replacement for my p38 at some point. Although the 110 did feel substantially bigger... I like the look of the 90. But no flat floor and I'd guess finding one with the middle front seat would be a huge challenge. My current Ninety (1989 vintage) seats 6 in something no longer than a Pug 106!

Really like the look of this:


But the lift kit is extremely expensive

l don't think it will ever replace the old Defender

However
lt's certainly capable.
The 900 mm wading depth is useful.

The other issue is image. Turn up at an African village or border crossing in an old 130 and you'll more than likely be treated as a friend.

Not sure how you'd be received in a new 130 though.

Indeed.

Although tbh for me personally I don't really overland (wouldn't mind a go at it though). I do green lane, but will probably stick to the older Ninety and Jimny for that, as Welsh lanes can be rather tight.

And yes, the new platform is hugely capable off road. Although I think it depends on the type of off roading you do. Green lanes are not really a challenge and really shouldn't be as they are all roads. A standard Freelander or even a Subaru Outback should manage most lanes no probs. Maybe with a little more ground clearance. But articulation and things are much less important.

I'd guess the same is true overlanding too. Awesome terrain, but probably not that extreme for the most part.

I tend to off road for fun, mostly setting up and competing in competitions or just playing about on some private ground.

For this kind of use even a Disco 1, Disco 2 or a p38 can be too big and aren't as capable as a Series or old Defender. Its hard to demo on a forum and photos never do justice. But if you have ever competed in an RTV style event you'll know what I mean. I call it technical off roading, as it is usually slow and requires technique. Trials sections are much tighter and designed to push the limits of the vehicle and drivers. Bent front bumpers are common place and event some minor body damage. All easily and cheaply repaired and replaced on the old models. But a new model would be much more vulnerable and expensive to fix.

I'd like to have more of a go at this type of off roading with a new Defender on good tyres to see what they can. But the size and vulnerability of damage means you'd just not want to opt to try some obstacles.

Over in the good old USA serious off roaders are retro fitting things like Toyota and other independent front suspension pickups with beam axles. Fed up with poor ground clearance, easy to damage struts, rods, and shafts. Some go whole hog and fit portals.

tottot said:

Over in the good old USA serious off roaders are retro fitting things like Toyota and other independent front suspension pickups with beam axles. Fed up with poor ground clearance, easy to damage struts, rods, and shafts. Some go whole hog and fit portals.

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Yes but they also regularly upgrade to three or four link suspension for their beam axles which is the same setup as the old style land rover had as standard! Three link front and four link rear since the introduction of the range rover.

And doing the above on rear axles even those on leaf springs so as location is no longer the work of the leaf leaving them just to do the suspension work.