300bhp/ton · Oct 10, 2023

Turboman said:
Forgot. The US is not a very good example, as vehicles are much less regulated over there than in European Markets.
Most US regs are actually aimed at preventing vehicles being imported, but they don't use safety as the reason in the same way as the EU.
Or economy, for that matter, the streets of US cities are still lined with massive gas guzzlers. And I mean massive, Dodge Rams etc, even in downtown Boston and New York.

Generally the US has stricter rules than the rest of the world. Definitely around emissions and things. They also produce a huge variety of vehicles, they aren't all large gas guzzlers. And even the ones that are, often are more fuel efficient than their European counter parts.

That aside, every global market has lots and lots of ladder chassis vehicles. VW have just released a new ladder chassis Amarok pickup truck (based on the Ranger platform). But Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Chrysler and many others all sell global market ladder chassis vehicles, as do many Chinese companies, even if we don't get there here, they are sold in places like Oz.

e.g.

lynall · Oct 10, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
The new Defender is big. A new 90 is as long as a 5 door Discovery 1 and quite a bit wider.

Interesting, your Series 2 is the same width as your 200Tdi 90 across the bulkhead, ie the body work. The only thing that is wider on the 90 is the axle, which moves the wheels outboard more, so you have the wheel arch spats/flares/extension to cover them.

There cannot be many lanes that are too narrow to a traditional 90.

Just checked, defender spats add 6 inches to total vehicle width, that makes some lanes way to tight.

300bhp/ton · Oct 10, 2023

lynall said:
Just checked, defender spats add 6 inches to total vehicle width, that makes some lanes way to tight.

It is only 3" either side, which while the same total, makes it a lot less in some ways. As said, the bodywork is the same, it is only the flexible plastic spats and wheels that are wider. You might scuff a tyre more easily, but in many ways you are less likely to damage the bodywork in a 90, as the body is no longer your widest point.

That said, I've done quite a few lanes and have never come across one that is ok for a Series but too small for a 90.

Plenty of room for a 90 on this one:

And on these:

90 even fitted fine when the bushes almost meet in the middle...

The narrower track of a Series means you can't usually sit in the ruts as well, note where the tyres are:

But that is because 90+ % of the vehicle that use the lanes are wider than a Series vehicle.

lynall · Oct 10, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
It is only 3" either side, which while the same total, makes it a lot less in some ways. As said, the bodywork is the same, it is only the flexible plastic spats and wheels that are wider. You might scuff a tyre more easily, but in many ways you are less likely to damage the bodywork in a 90, as the body is no longer your widest point.

That said, I've done quite a few lanes and have never come across one that is ok for a Series but too small for a 90.

Plenty of room for a 90 on this one:

And on these:

90 even fitted fine when the bushes almost meet in the middle...

The narrower track of a Series means you can't usually sit in the ruts as well, note where the tyres are:

But that is because 90+ % of the vehicle that use the lanes are wider than a Series vehicle.

One I used to go down you could not open the doors on the series, I did think don't you bloody breakdown! that extra 6 inches would have meant a damaged 90 with bits torn off.

lynall · Oct 10, 2023

Tight lane is close to this one, buggered if I can find pics of tight one.

This one is a bit further away, but made a great pic.

Turboman · Oct 10, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
Generally the US has stricter rules than the rest of the world. Definitely around emissions and things. They also produce a huge variety of vehicles, they aren't all large gas guzzlers. And even the ones that are, often are more fuel efficient than their European counter parts.

That aside, every global market has lots and lots of ladder chassis vehicles. VW have just released a new ladder chassis Amarok pickup truck (based on the Ranger platform). But Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Chrysler and many others all sell global market ladder chassis vehicles, as do many Chinese companies, even if we don't get there here, they are sold in places like Oz.

e.g.

I think the safety issues with Defenders were mostly to do with the difficulty of fitting side impact bars in the doors. The doors are pretty thin, and the cab space limited already.

Have to say, I don't agree with there not being many huge gas guzzlers in the States, I have been there pretty often most of my life, and I see plenty. Probably because fuel is cheap compared to over here.

Turboman · Oct 10, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
It is only 3" either side, which while the same total, makes it a lot less in some ways. As said, the bodywork is the same, it is only the flexible plastic spats and wheels that are wider. You might scuff a tyre more easily, but in many ways you are less likely to damage the bodywork in a 90, as the body is no longer your widest point.

That said, I've done quite a few lanes and have never come across one that is ok for a Series but too small for a 90.

Plenty of room for a 90 on this one:

And on these:

90 even fitted fine when the bushes almost meet in the middle...

The narrower track of a Series means you can't usually sit in the ruts as well, note where the tyres are:

But that is because 90+ % of the vehicle that use the lanes are wider than a Series vehicle.

And let's not forget 8 foot gates with granite gateposts, where you have to turn in off a narrow lane, as is common in Kernow.
Plenty of places down West where even a Series won't get round without a shunt.

300bhp/ton · Oct 10, 2023

Turboman said:
And let's not forget 8 foot gates with granite gateposts, where you have to turn in off a narrow lane, as is common in Kernow.
Plenty of places down West where even a Series won't get round without a shunt.

8’ is plenty wide enough to get lots of vehicles down

btw a 90 has a way better turning circle than an 88.

300bhp/ton · Oct 10, 2023

Turboman said:
I think the safety issues with Defenders were mostly to do with the difficulty of fitting side impact bars in the doors. The doors are pretty thin, and the cab space limited already.

That is only looking at the old doors. There is no reason why they couldn’t have kept the ladder chassis and mounted a more modern style body tub on it. They had already done that with the Disco1, p38 Range Rover and Disco 2.

Not saying there weren’t monetary, finance, marketing or internal political reasons why they stopped wanting to build a traditional 4x4. But there really are no legislative or physical reasons they couldn’t have. As demonstrated by several million new sales every year of ladder chassis vehicles globally in all World markets.

Turboman said:
Have to say, I don't agree with there not being many huge gas guzzlers in the States, I have been there pretty often most of my life, and I see plenty. Probably because fuel is cheap compared to over here.

Fuel is cheap compared to here. But it is all relative. Yes they have more large engine vehicles. But many of those are available in Oz, Asia or South America too. And it isn’t as if we have a shortage of large gas guzzling vehicles in Europe from the likes of Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, BMW etc.

But there also plenty of small engine vehicles in America too and has been for decades and decades. They just aren’t the ones that get remembered.

slomofo · Oct 10, 2023

JLR canned the old Defender for economic reasons, allied to the safety and emissions requirements of a key market (North America) making a cost effective manufacturing process unviable - the tooling was worn out, the technology was outdated, it was an inefficient and unique product line. Lest we forget that JLR as a Manufacturer are about profit and new Defender brand is a runaway success that continues to grow, there many thousands of orders on the books from folk that want what it is today, not what it used to be.

The new Defender is a very capable modern redesign of the classic, but it’s a fundamentally different proposition - I drive both every Week and enjoy them for entirely different reasons, my old Defender gets me everywhere I need to go on/off-road, the new Defender does more with less fuss/noise /cost/discomfort - but I’m not trying to get stuck down a muddy green lane, or in a mud hole on a pay and play site, those days are no more. However, on the off-road test track at Gaydon, the new Defender beat my old Defender hands down, and the nut holding the steering wheel was not a factor

RustyDefender · Oct 10, 2023

slomofo said:
JLR canned the old Defender for economic reasons, allied to the safety and emissions requirements of a key market (North America) making a cost effective manufacturing process unviable - the tooling was worn out, the technology was outdated, it was an inefficient and unique product line. Lest we forget that JLR as a Manufacturer are about profit and new Defender brand is a runaway success that continues to grow, there many thousands of orders on the books from folk that want what it is today, not what it used to be.

The new Defender is a very capable modern redesign of the classic, but it’s a fundamentally different proposition - I drive both every Week and enjoy them for entirely different reasons, my old Defender gets me everywhere I need to go on/off-road, the new Defender does more with less fuss/noise /cost/discomfort - but I’m not trying to get stuck down a muddy green lane, or in a mud hole on a pay and play site, those days are no more. However, on the off-road test track at Gaydon, the new Defender beat my old Defender hands down, and the nut holding the steering wheel was not a factor

I like how you said the official company name and vehicle name. No more "Land Rover".

300bhp/ton · Oct 10, 2023

slomofo said:
JLR canned the old Defender for economic reasons, allied to the safety and emissions requirements of a key market (North America) making a cost effective manufacturing process unviable - the tooling was worn out, the technology was outdated, it was an inefficient and unique product line.

Emissions - no. As it was the same engine as the Transit and Ranger.

Safety... maybe. But again, no reason it couldn't have been updated with a newer body tub. Suzuki basically did this with the 4th Gen Jimny....

Lets also not forget Ford only a couple of years ago launched a brand new ladder chassis 4x4 in the form of the Bronco and managed to sell 200,000 in the first year. Makes total JLR global sales look pitiful!

slomofo said:
Lest we forget that JLR as a Manufacturer are about profit and new Defender brand is a runaway success that continues to grow, there many thousands of orders on the books from folk that want what it is today, not what it used to be.

The new Defender has sold well. JLR have managed to rape the pillage the name very well indeed for a vehicle that bears no likeness or resemblance to the old model. But it has come at the sacrifice of totally killing Disco 5 sales and impacting RRS sales too. Not saying it isn't progress, but it is more like 3 steps forward and 2 back. It is still going in the right direction, but not quite as well as only looking at the small picture might tell you.

slomofo said:
The new Defender is a very capable modern redesign of the classic, but it’s a fundamentally different proposition - I drive both every Week and enjoy them for entirely different reasons, my old Defender gets me everywhere I need to go on/off-road, the new Defender does more with less fuss/noise /cost/discomfort - but I’m not trying to get stuck down a muddy green lane, or in a mud hole on a pay and play site, those days are no more. However, on the off-road test track at Gaydon, the new Defender beat my old Defender hands down, and the nut holding the steering wheel was not a factor

What track at Gaydon? And what old Defender? Traction aids make a huge difference. But there is nothing the new model can do that the old one can't. Unless you can provide a real world example?

As for your description of the new Defender. You could use that same sentence had you been comparing a Range Rover (classic), Discovery 1, Disco 2, p38 etc.... All of them can do what a traditional Defender does. But all of them are much better road vehicles too.

I don't dislike the new model. But no matter how you dress it up. It is nothing more than a Discovery 6 wearing the Defender name for marketing reasons. It is not and never will be the successor to the original Land Rover, as the philosophy is completely wrong. It would be like trying to argue that a fwd 5 door hatchback would make for a better MX-5, because it could be more refined, more comfy, more practical and faster in a straight line.

300bhp/ton · Oct 10, 2023

JLR - how to kill one of your own models. Introduce a direct competitor to it and price it cheaper, make it look better and give it better specs.... The story of the Discovery 5 and the new Defender

Disco 5 US sales:

2018 - 9,800
2019 - 9,200

Probably pretty solid for a vehicle of this value in the USA with a small dealer network.

Now truly f up those figures with the new Defender competing directly against it and you get

2022 - 1,488

JLR sell more in the EU, but sort of a similar story...

2017 - 42,600
2022 - 14,100

lynall · Oct 11, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
JLR - how to kill one of your own models. Introduce a direct competitor to it and price it cheaper, make it look better and give it better specs.... The story of the Discovery 5 and the new Defender

Disco 5 US sales:

2018 - 9,800
2019 - 9,200

Probably pretty solid for a vehicle of this value in the USA with a small dealer network.

Now truly f up those figures with the new Defender competing directly against it and you get

2022 - 1,488

JLR sell more in the EU, but sort of a similar story...

2017 - 42,600
2022 - 14,100

D5 looks cannot help either.

Turboman · Oct 11, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
8’ is plenty wide enough to get lots of vehicles down btw a 90 has a way better turning circle than an 88.

I know, driven plenty of both. But it isn't the width of the gate that is the issue, it is turning into the gate from a lane that is interference fit wide anyway, with stone hedges and vegetation.

Turboman · Oct 11, 2023

300bhp/ton said:
That is only looking at the old doors. There is no reason why they couldn’t have kept the ladder chassis and mounted a more modern style body tub on it. They had already done that with the Disco1, p38 Range Rover and Disco 2.

Not saying there weren’t monetary, finance, marketing or internal political reasons why they stopped wanting to build a traditional 4x4. But there really are no legislative or physical reasons they couldn’t have. As demonstrated by several million new sales every year of ladder chassis vehicles globally in all World markets.

Fuel is cheap compared to here. But it is all relative. Yes they have more large engine vehicles. But many of those are available in Oz, Asia or South America too. And it isn’t as if we have a shortage of large gas guzzling vehicles in Europe from the likes of Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, BMW etc.

But there also plenty of small engine vehicles in America too and has been for decades and decades. They just aren’t the ones that get remembered.

Many more smaller engines than there used to be.

But in England, Mother used to drive us around in a 1.3 Marina when we were kids.
When we went to stay in Canada with the Grandparents we used to get ferried around in one of these!

tottot · Oct 11, 2023

Turboman said:
And let's not forget 8 foot gates with granite gateposts, where you have to turn in off a narrow lane, as is common in Kernow.
Plenty of places down West where even a Series won't get round without a shunt.

Eight foot gates! Your lucky, around here most are just six foot with big rock gate posts of Pembrokeshire blue stone.

Turboman · Oct 11, 2023

tottot said:
Eight foot gates! Your lucky, around here most are just six foot with big rock gate posts of Pembrokeshire blue stone.

And probably with an old rusty tea tray wired into a hole in the metal gate as well!

Upcountry folk don't know they are born!

300bhp/ton · Oct 11, 2023

Turboman said:
I know, driven plenty of both. But it isn't the width of the gate that is the issue, it is turning into the gate from a lane that is interference fit wide anyway, with stone hedges and vegetation.

I agree. Although in such situations it would be the front wing/bumper of mid point down the side of the vehicle that would be at risk. And as an 88 and a 90 have the same body width. The risk would be equal. But Adv to the 90 as it can turn tighter.

300bhp/ton · Oct 11, 2023

Turboman said:
Many more smaller engines than there used to be.

But in England, Mother used to drive us around in a 1.3 Marina when we were kids.
When we went to stay in Canada with the Grandparents we used to get ferried around in one of these!

View attachment 299772

As a trend there are more attainable large engine cars in N. America but also other parts of the World such as Asia and Oz.

My parents had a 6.0 litre V12 Jaguar saloon…. In the U.K. and my grandfather had a V8 Range Rover.

And in the USA they did and do sell cars like this:

1.1 to 1.3 litre engines. But nobody really cares or remembers cars like this. Despite them existing.

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