The Mad Hat Man said:
Not practical.
The main reason for creating LZIR was because the normal recovery services won’t touch green lanes etc, and it was considered a good idea to have our own list of peeps that would help one another. It varies on each request, which is why there is no obligation to assist. If you don’t want to help anyone off road then that’s fine.
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I am more than sure if a request comes in from a numpty stuck in a meadow we would all want to race out to take the pi55 but that’s what we do anyway.
Like I said. The system ain’t broke.

The rule would simply mean we could sit back and codgitate as a group before jumping in. It would make the asker give more info and more pleading. I like pleading.
You get more info when they are desperate. :p
 
JohnM70 said:
With respect, complacency is the cause of many accidents or incidents in all walks of life...
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I agree. Which is why I follow routes I have used before, am very careful about maintaining and checking vehicles and tyres, am very alert to changes of conditions, and always try and expect the unexpected, like random behaviour of animals or humans.
 
Bobsticle said:
I am more than sure if a request comes in from a numpty stuck in a meadow we would all want to race out to take the pi55 but that’s what we do anyway.
Like I said. The system ain’t broke.

The rule would simply mean we could sit back and codgitate as a group before jumping in. It would make the asker give more info and more pleading. I like pleading.
You get more info when they are desperate. :p
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It would also give the simplist get out for those turning up to a lying git who didn’t tell us the exact circumstances in which they got stuck.
Anyone feeling a tad pressured th have a go anyway could simply walk away quoting the one forum rule.
“Screw that mate, your off road”.
 
goonarmy said:
I don't understand the question, How many have been prevented? No idea. How many still haven't been prevented even with this in place? Good question, simple answer too many.
Your anecdote tells me you carried out the same procedures as me ( the cones thing is over and above what I mentioned although would be covered by our permit to dig system) and still had a potential incident. You imply that a procedure could be long yet carried out your own procedure in a timely manner. Sounds like you are undermining your own point.
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Your system seems to suggest reams of paperwork and form filling. Maybe i've misunderstood you.

"Permits to dig" as opposed to just throwing 4 cones that happened to be in the car park over the bits that we didnt want anyone digging in. No idea how long one of these permits takes to write out - the cones took a couple of seconds.

The key risk bit was written in pencil at the top of the signing in sheet (we log volunteer hours) so that people knew the rules. Could have been done verbally.
 
Bobsticle said:
It would also give the simplist get out for those turning up to a lying git who didn’t tell us the exact circumstances in which they got stuck.
Anyone feeling a tad pressured th have a go anyway could simply walk away quoting the one forum rule.
“Screw that mate, your off road”.
Click to expand...

I think the get out is simpler than that. People are welcome to respond, to help if they feel willing and able, and to walk away if they dont.
 
private penguin said:
I think the get out is simpler than that. People are welcome to respond, to help if they feel willing and able, and to walk away if they dont.
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That has to be the only basis on how it could work.
There is no reason why more info could be given tho, and the requester understanding the rules on which someone would respond.

This talk of on road or off road cannot be applied because each call is unique.
A mum cought out on a camp site, or a breakdown on the M5.
 
private penguin said:
I think the get out is simpler than that. People are welcome to respond, to help if they feel willing and able, and to walk away if they dont.
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It’s already been stated that people do feel abliged to have a go once on site. That along with some nob in his 4x4 panda shouting, it’s all right I’ve done this loads of times, throw me your rope, can put us in situations we would rather not be in. I’m not saying we won’t pull people off mountains. To the experienced the challenge of a difficult rescue may be why they sign up. The “one rule” would simply slow the process down a little for the most challenging situations and enable us all to take stock and allow the most able members to help.
Better to say no off road and allow a few measured attempts than risk a disco on all terrains.
 
The Mad Hat Man said:
That has to be the only basis on how it could work.
There is no reason why more info could be given tho, and the requester understanding the rules on which someone would respond.
Click to expand...

I agree

I dont think there needs to be any huge change as to "how" or "when" we respond (other than maybe some recommendations to work in pairs, to prioritise people over vehicles, and a reminder to responders that there's no shame in admitting they cant effect a recovery)

What would perhaps be useful is standard information that is gathered and passed on to responders... and as you say, a reminder to the requester of the rules!
 
Bobsticle said:
It’s already been stated that people do feel abliged to have a go once on site. That along with some nob in his 4x4 panda shouting, it’s all right I’ve done this loads of times, throw me your rope, can put us in situations we would rather not be in. I’m not saying we won’t pull people off mountains. To the experienced the challenge of a difficult rescue may be why they sign up. The “one rule” would simply slow the process down a little for the most challenging situations and enable us all to take stock and allow the most able members to help.
Better to say no off road and allow a few measured attempts than risk a disco on all terrains.
Click to expand...

Maybe we could all just be adults and recognise the limitations of a) our own abilities and b) the abilities of our vehicles.

A D3 on ATs without a winch may be less well equipped for recovery than a 90 truck cab on mud tyres with a winch, ground anchor, etc... but the 90 truck cab might struggle to bring a whole family down off a hillside in a safe legal way!

However, an experienced off road driver with recovery experience in the D3 may well do a better job than a complete novice in the 90. It's not always about the vehicle. A few years back we recovered a stuck XC90 (whistles quietly) from a boggy field on christmas eve using a 1998 nissan almera, a basic tow strap, and some old carpets.
 
private penguin said:
Maybe we could all just be adults and recognise the limitations of a) our own abilities and b) the abilities of our vehicles.

A D3 on ATs without a winch may be less well equipped for recovery than a 90 truck cab on mud tyres with a winch, ground anchor, etc... but the 90 truck cab might struggle to bring a whole family down off a hillside in a safe legal way!

However, an experienced off road driver with recovery experience in the D3 may well do a better job than a complete novice in the 90. It's not always about the vehicle. A few years back we recovered a stuck XC90 (whistles quietly) from a boggy field on christmas eve using a 1998 nissan almera, a basic tow strap, and some old carpets.
Click to expand...
Like I say. The system in place isn’t broke. I just hate the idea of lots of rules being put in place that probably won’t mean anything for the the infinitely unique situations we will no doubt come across.
I’m all for common sense but it seems the what if brigade need it spelled out. I for one have no problem walking away from anything I’m not happy doing or deem too risky.
It would be a shame to hide the thread away, I think as a service to anyone it promotes Land Rover ownership as second to none and is a credit to all of us.
 
private penguin said:
Maybe we could all just be adults and recognise the limitations of a) our own abilities and b) the abilities of our vehicles.

A D3 on ATs without a winch may be less well equipped for recovery than a 90 truck cab on mud tyres with a winch, ground anchor, etc... but the 90 truck cab might struggle to bring a whole family down off a hillside in a safe legal way!

However, an experienced off road driver with recovery experience in the D3 may well do a better job than a complete novice in the 90. It's not always about the vehicle. A few years back we recovered a stuck XC90 (whistles quietly) from a boggy field on christmas eve using a 1998 nissan almera, a basic tow strap, and some old carpets.
Click to expand...

The skill of the operator is always paramount.

One of my friends was an off road instructor in the marines, he now leads off road expeditions in Africa.
As it happens, he does have a D3, and I have an axle lockered Ninety truck cab.
On occasions, he has come to the farm, and will drive his D3 round the fields. He makes it look easy. No wheelspin, no mud, ecxept on the tyres, when he is finished.
Quite simple, he is a much better, and more experienced, off road driver than I am. He is better at picking lines, better at gear and selection, and better at knowing where not to go.
I always try and learn as much as possible from him when I see him.
 
There is a private conversation going on at the moment that is discussing this very subject and what rools/guidelines etc we NEED to introduce. There are very few rools that could/should/would be applied other than whatever happens it will still be an absolutely voluntary gentlemans agreement that we might attend and that anyone who does attend doesn't have to do anything they don't want to. There will be no obligation on anyone to do anything ....
 
private penguin said:
Your system seems to suggest reams of paperwork and form filling. Maybe i've misunderstood you.

"Permits to dig" as opposed to just throwing 4 cones that happened to be in the car park over the bits that we didnt want anyone digging in. No idea how long one of these permits takes to write out - the cones took a couple of seconds.

The key risk bit was written in pencil at the top of the signing in sheet (we log volunteer hours) so that people knew the rules. Could have been done verbally.
Click to expand...
Writing it means that when it does go wrong-and it does, means there's a record. And of course filling out a few lines on a piece of paper is quicker than finding a placing cones that may or may not be moved.;) Health and safety means just that. Being safe and not impacting health. It doesn't mean paperwork and not doing the task. Anyone who thinks that doesn' u unerstand it.
 
My point though is that the record is there for the lawyers and insurance companies. It doesnt make the job any safer.
The cones - there's always half a dozen lying around the car park. Took 10 seconds to move them. In all honesty if we'd written something down it would have been pretty hard to describe where not to dig in a foolproof way.
 
Turboman said:
The skill of the operator is always paramount.

One of my friends was an off road instructor in the marines, he now leads off road expeditions in Africa.
As it happens, he does have a D3, and I have an axle lockered Ninety truck cab.
On occasions, he has come to the farm, and will drive his D3 round the fields. He makes it look easy. No wheelspin, no mud, ecxept on the tyres, when he is finished.
Quite simple, he is a much better, and more experienced, off road driver than I am. He is better at picking lines, better at gear and selection, and better at knowing where not to go.
I always try and learn as much as possible from him when I see him.
Click to expand...

To be honest - the D3 is a pretty capable off road vehicle... as much as it may look like a chelsea tractor. Arguably needs less skill to drive it well off road as so much is done automatically (diff locks, traction control, etc). If i could afford a defender for the "fun stuff" then i'd have one, but realistically for work we needed a smart looking 4x4 capable of doing long motorway journeys in comfort, but also capable of hauling a trailer around a field.

I know i can take the D3 (on ATs) onto the campsite at the moment and barely damage the ground. We decided it would be unwise to attempt the same with a hilux on road tyres.
 
private penguin said:
To be honest - the D3 is a pretty capable off road vehicle... as much as it may look like a chelsea tractor. Arguably needs less skill to drive it well off road as so much is done automatically (diff locks, traction control, etc). If i could afford a defender for the "fun stuff" then i'd have one, but realistically for work we needed a smart looking 4x4 capable of doing long motorway journeys in comfort, but also capable of hauling a trailer around a field.

I know i can take the D3 (on ATs) onto the campsite at the moment and barely damage the ground. We decided it would be unwise to attempt the same with a hilux on road tyres.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with the off road capability of D3 or D4, several of my friends have them.
And a Ninety with Detroits and Tru Trac is fully automatic too, except for the centre diff.
Main difference is that if you break the D3 or D4, the repair will be much more expensive!
 
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private penguin said:
To be honest - the D3 is a pretty capable off road vehicle... as much as it may look like a chelsea tractor. Arguably needs less skill to drive it well off road as so much is done automatically (diff locks, traction control, etc). If i could afford a defender for the "fun stuff" then i'd have one, but realistically for work we needed a smart looking 4x4 capable of doing long motorway journeys in comfort, but also capable of hauling a trailer around a field.

I know i can take the D3 (on ATs) onto the campsite at the moment and barely damage the ground. We decided it would be unwise to attempt the same with a hilux on road tyres.
Click to expand...
Admit it. You just like speeding. :p
 
Bobsticle said:
Admit it. You just like speeding. :p
Click to expand...

Clearly the fact that I can, and do, drive at the speed limit when it is safe to do so rather than crawling around at a snails pace bothers you.

I would love to own a 300tdi or 200tdi defender, or even maybe a series, to use off road - its on the wish list when finances hopefully, at some future point, allow. But as its not a practical option for day to day driving for me, it would need to be a second car.
 
private penguin said:
Clearly the fact that I can, and do, drive at the speed limit when it is safe to do so rather than crawling around at a snails pace bothers you.

I would love to own a 300tdi or 200tdi defender, or even maybe a series, to use off road - its on the wish list when finances hopefully, at some future point, allow. But as its not a practical option for day to day driving for me, it would need to be a second car.
Click to expand...
Ha! I got pulled for speeding on the A14 between Bury St. Edmund's & Stowmarket in my old Series 3 pickup, I do miss that old 6 cylinder petrol roar as you booted it, copper let me off and said he didn't realise something so old with such questionable aerodynamics could go so fast, 85mph in a 50, I should really go to Holland and buy it back!
 
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