Turboman said:
On small jobs, a mental assessment is good enough. And that is what we have done on the farm for many years, and things have gone safely, and no-one has been hurt.
On a very large job, with hundreds or thousands of workers involved, a written assessment is needed, so everyone can keep track of what has been said, and decided.
The idea that major road works and so on were ever quick and cheap is a myth. There were motorway works around Bristle for the first 30 years of my motoring life. I know, I have regularly used those roads. The last few years they seem to have decided that the roads around there are as good as they can get them, so it has gone away.



I think you are misunderstanding people's concerns. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people should not turn out.
What most are suggesting is that a system be put in place to ensure, within reason, that what the person who requests a rescue is telling the truth about the circumstances they, or their vehicle are actually in at the time.
Click to expand...

OK got you, I was perhaps mistakenly getting the feeling that this incident was putting people off and that the concept of LZIR was therefore at risk in some way.
Great to hear that the ethos of "helping each other out of ticklish situations" is as strong as ever because it is what makes this place so special (that, and the outrageous banter in AG, of course). :)
 
One simple rule would get rid of all the BS.

“If your off road your on your own”

I spent ten years wasting my time doing construction industry risk assessments and 99% of them are nothing more than an exercise in litigation limitation. Covering a companies backside is one thing but impossible to implement in our little world.

If someone finds themselves in a bit of trouble we should be available to assist.
If they are out dicking about off road we shouldn’t get involved unless they require some advice.
 
Bobsticle said:
One simple rule would get rid of all the BS.

“If your off road your on your own”

I spent ten years wasting my time doing construction industry risk assessments and 99% of them are nothing more than an exercise in litigation limitation. Covering a companies backside is one thing but impossible to implement in our little world.

If someone finds themselves in a bit of trouble we should be available to assist.
If they are out dicking about off road we shouldn’t get involved unless they require some advice.
Click to expand...

I think that may be a bit harsh. What about a family out on a gentle laneing trip, who get a flat tyre, and find their spare will not hold air either?

Agree totally when it comes to people that are off piste, or out on a legal byway in totally unsuitable conditions. Leave them sort it out, and face the financial and legal consequences.
 
Turboman said:
I think that may be a bit harsh. What about a family out on a gentle laneing trip, who get a flat tyre, and find their spare will not hold air either?

Agree totally when it comes to people that are off piste, or out on a legal byway in totally unsuitable conditions. Leave them sort it out, and face the financial and legal consequences.
Click to expand...
A family out on a green lane are not off road.
 
Bobsticle said:
A family out on a green lane are not off road.
Click to expand...

Fair point. But nor are some of those out on difficult lanes in bad conditions.

As I said before, for me, it is more about ensuring that the request is as accurate and truthful as possible before calling for rescuers to go out. People need to know what to expect when they arrive. So they can be suitably equipped, and within the capabilities of driver and vehicles.
 
Bobsticle said:
One simple rule would get rid of all the BS.

“If your off road your on your own”

I spent ten years wasting my time doing construction industry risk assessments and 99% of them are nothing more than an exercise in litigation limitation. Covering a companies backside is one thing but impossible to implement in our little world.

If someone finds themselves in a bit of trouble we should be available to assist.
If they are out dicking about off road we shouldn’t get involved unless they require some advice.
Click to expand...

How do you define "off road".

I'm assuming we're including legal byways as roads.

What about someone who is on private land with permission. Ok most farmers will know other farmers locally who can help out, but lets take the hypothetical example of someone with a freelander at a caravan site who suddenly discovers on a wet day that they no longer have working 4wd. Would we say no to going and towing their caravan out for them?

The choice has to come down to the rescuers.
 
private penguin said:
How do you define "off road".

I'm assuming we're including legal byways as roads.

What about someone who is on private land with permission. Ok most farmers will know other farmers locally who can help out, but lets take the hypothetical example of someone with a freelander at a caravan site who suddenly discovers on a wet day that they no longer have working 4wd. Would we say no to going and towing their caravan out for them?

The choice has to come down to the rescuers.
Click to expand...

Personally, speaking as a landowner. If I had given someone permission to drive on my land, I would expect to recover them myself if there was any incident.
And I would not allow other people to attempt to do this, unless they were well known to me.

Can't speak for anyone else on that, but that is how I would view it.
 
Bobsticle said:
One simple rule would get rid of all the BS.

“If your off road your on your own”

I spent ten years wasting my time doing construction industry risk assessments and 99% of them are nothing more than an exercise in litigation limitation. Covering a companies backside is one thing but impossible to implement in our little world.

If someone finds themselves in a bit of trouble we should be available to assist.
If they are out dicking about off road we shouldn’t get involved unless they require some advice.
Click to expand...
Not practical.
The main reason for creating LZIR was because the normal recovery services won’t touch green lanes etc, and it was considered a good idea to have our own list of peeps that would help one another. It varies on each request, which is why there is no obligation to assist. If you don’t want to help anyone off road then that’s fine.
 
Someone on a green lane in any conditions are not off road.

It’s the definition that qualifies the activity.

That’s why we have two topics on this very forum. Green landing and off roaring.

Yes green lanes can be bad but local members are very much more likely to know that green lane and be able to advise/attend accordingly.
 
Bobsticle said:
Someone on a green lane in any conditions are not off road.

It’s the definition that qualifies the activity.

That’s why we have two topics on this very forum. Green landing and off roaring.

Yes green lanes can be bad but local members are very much more likely to know that green lane and be able to advise/attend accordingly.
Click to expand...

Certainly plenty of that on LZ! :D
 
Turboman said:
Personally, speaking as a landowner. If I had given someone permission to drive on my land, I would expect to recover them myself if there was any incident.
And I would not allow other people to attempt to do this, unless they were well known to me.

Can't speak for anyone else on that, but that is how I would view it.
Click to expand...

As someone who manages a (non public) campsite i'd generally agree. If someone gets a van stuck on the field i'd rather one of my team went and shifted it. In fact, ideally, i'd have one of my team driving the 4wd and the other driving the van as people have a tendancy to spin wheels while being recovered if they dont know what they're doing.

But taking a public campsite as an example, not all of them have the means to shift a stuck caravan - some of them the owner is pretty hard to trace. In my hypothetical example a local LZIR member popping down with a working 4wd to pull the caravan off the wet grass would seem a logical solution.
 
private penguin said:
As someone who manages a (non public) campsite i'd generally agree. If someone gets a van stuck on the field i'd rather one of my team went and shifted it.

But taking a public campsite as an example, not all of them have the means to shift a stuck caravan - some of them the owner is pretty hard to trace. In my hypothetical example a local LZIR member popping down with a working 4wd to pull the caravan off the wet grass would seem a logical solution.
Click to expand...
So they wouldn’t be ‘off road’ then. A hard standing down the local pensioners retreat is hardly off road ffs.
 
private penguin said:
As someone who manages a (non public) campsite i'd generally agree. If someone gets a van stuck on the field i'd rather one of my team went and shifted it. In fact, ideally, i'd have one of my team driving the 4wd and the other driving the van as people have a tendancy to spin wheels while being recovered if they dont know what they're doing.

But taking a public campsite as an example, not all of them have the means to shift a stuck caravan - some of them the owner is pretty hard to trace. In my hypothetical example a local LZIR member popping down with a working 4wd to pull the caravan off the wet grass would seem a logical solution.
Click to expand...

I agree. That should be a fairly safe and simple rescue. Satisfying for the rescuer, helpful to the rescued.

In my own situation, I never had campsites, but my fields are very steep and slippery, so of interest to the serious off roader. They are also pretty dangerous, so unless it was someone I knew was very experienced, I would get them to follow me around first, in my own vehicle. Usually with the instruction" Keep your wheels in my wheelmarks, and you won't run into too much trouble!".
 
private penguin said:
How many deaths / injuries are actually prevented by writing all this stuff down rather than using common sense?



Yes - SOPs and RA's have their place - but there is such a thing as "over the top".
Click to expand...
I don't understand the question, How many have been prevented? No idea. How many still haven't been prevented even with this in place? Good question, simple answer too many.
Your anecdote tells me you carried out the same procedures as me ( the cones thing is over and above what I mentioned although would be covered by our permit to dig system) and still had a potential incident. You imply that a procedure could be long yet carried out your own procedure in a timely manner. Sounds like you are undermining your own point.
 
It seems to me that there might be a preponderance of people joining LZ for the recovery assistance which is offered by members to other members, and therein lies at least one problem.
One thing which in my opinion could be done is to close the LZIR board to non-members as has been done for the “Anything Goes” board. A small amount of HTML can also be added to the “head code” of the forum to stop the page being listed on the various search engines.
This will at least go some way to doing something about people joining when they’ve got themselves in the pickies and when “honourable members” have put themselves out to help, those who were rescued are never seen again.
Personally, I like the idea of owners helping owners but something must be done so that we don’t get taken advantage of.
 
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