G

griff2

Active Member
Hi again

just managed to get a 2002 kv6 freelander ,i know the vcu is dif from the others as in it has no damper on it as the kv6 engine is much stabler or so im told

any way if thats the case does that mean that the drive tran esp the vcu should last longer and give less probs than on my td4 freelander?

cheers
griff
 
The rear diff is the same on all 2001 onward eengines. The V6 has a different IRD to the other models. The casing is different and so are most of the internals, the ratio is different too. Apparently it does fit other models though. From memory, the VCU has a different slip ratio to the smaller engines and it's missing the damper. The engine is smoother than a 4 pot so the damper isn't needed.
 
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I emailed Bell Engineering about the VCU, They said that they were the same save for the damper .
 
v6 doesn't have the damper but only GKN and presumably LR know if the v6 vcu is different to vcu's used on other vehicles. It may have the same construction/plate/size/volume etc but it's down to knowing what the precise version of fluid inside is, and the exact amount. Re-conners guess this.
 
The amount of fluid isnt guessed, it was calculated by building test units. All VCU's are the same bar the damper
 
Reminds me of a dream I once had. I opened the cupboard to find loads (we is talking hundreds ere) of genuine tins of Heinz baked beans, all of which were long past their safe to use date. I hatched a cunning plan to open each tin, dispose of the contents then clean it out. I then spent time trying to perfect my version of the Heinz recipe in order to refill my empty bean cans. I used trial and error to get the right consistency, number of beans and of course the right taste. Call it what you wish but I was proud of my Heinz recipe even though I knew deep down it wasn't the exact match for the wonderful Heinz version. Forget forensic science and lab tests to conclude the exact chemical structure. There int nowt wrong with my taste buds. Next came the delicate task of welding up the opened tins. Bit hit and miss to start with but before long I could do it with my eyes closed. I cooked my Heinz baked bean recipe then filled the welded tins through a small hole in the tin lid. Once sealed I gave it a quick covering of traditional Heinz labelling and hey presto. Genuine reconditioned Heinz baked beans. Over time I realised the need to cook the beans before entering the tin was unnecessary, as I could fill the tins before welding the lid instead. The heat from the welding would cook my Heinz recipe to what I would call perfection. Amazed by my ingenuity I said to myself: "this time next year Rodney" Then I woke up.
 
Hippo said:
Reminds me of a dream I once had. I opened the cupboard to find loads (we is talking hundreds ere) of genuine tins of Heinz baked beans, all of which were long past their safe to use date. I hatched a cunning plan to open each tin, dispose of the contents then clean it out. I then spent time trying to perfect my version of the Heinz recipe in order to refill my empty bean cans. I used trial and error to get the right consistency, number of beans and of course the right taste. Call it what you wish but I was proud of my Heinz recipe even though I knew deep down it wasn't the exact match for the wonderful Heinz version. Forget forensic science and lab tests to conclude the exact chemical structure. There int nowt wrong with my taste buds. Next came the delicate task of welding up the opened tins. Bit hit and miss to start with but before long I could do it with my eyes closed. I cooked my Heinz baked bean recipe then filled the welded tins through a small hole in the tin lid. Once sealed I gave it a quick covering of traditional Heinz labelling and hey presto. Genuine reconditioned Heinz baked beans. Over time I realised the need to cook the beans before entering the tin was unnecessary, as I could fill the tins before welding the lid instead. The heat from the welding would cook my Heinz recipe to what I would call perfection. Amazed by my ingenuity I said to myself: "this time next year Rodney" Then I woke up.
Click to expand...

Strange farty bum bum
 
What you got against VCU reconditioners Hippo? Sure there have been some bad ones over the years, but I haven't seen many (any?) complaints about Bells. With that in mind - might it just be possible that they can produce reconditioned VCUs that actually work close enough to LR spec?

Does it matter what goes in it, Silicon Grade 1614.7, Silicon Grade 1298.5, Treacle or Baked Beans - so long as it works well?
 
What I'm trying to get my head around - is how all variants use the same rear diff, but the V6 uses an IRD with different ratios to the others - how does that work - I'm confused.
 
Hippo said:
Reminds me of a dream I once had. I opened the cupboard to find loads (we is talking hundreds ere) of genuine tins of Heinz baked beans, all of which were long past their safe to use date. I hatched a cunning plan to open each tin, dispose of the contents then clean it out. I then spent time trying to perfect my version of the Heinz recipe in order to refill my empty bean cans. I used trial and error to get the right consistency, number of beans and of course the right taste. Call it what you wish but I was proud of my Heinz recipe even though I knew deep down it wasn't the exact match for the wonderful Heinz version. Forget forensic science and lab tests to conclude the exact chemical structure. There int nowt wrong with my taste buds. Next came the delicate task of welding up the opened tins. Bit hit and miss to start with but before long I could do it with my eyes closed. I cooked my Heinz baked bean recipe then filled the welded tins through a small hole in the tin lid. Once sealed I gave it a quick covering of traditional Heinz labelling and hey presto. Genuine reconditioned Heinz baked beans. Over time I realised the need to cook the beans before entering the tin was unnecessary, as I could fill the tins before welding the lid instead. The heat from the welding would cook my Heinz recipe to what I would call perfection. Amazed by my ingenuity I said to myself: "this time next year Rodney" Then I woke up.
Click to expand...

Posting on here reminds me of a dream i once had. 4 new people all started work, as i'd been there for years they asked me the best way to commute to our place of work, i said i had tried many different ways but in my experience the best way was to get the train from station X to station Y. One of the new starters, Bob piped up "nah thats not right, the best way is via bus, its far cheaper", the following week all 4 new starters jumped on the bus and were late for work, Bob lost his job for poor time keeping. The following day the 3 remaining people asked me again, "whats the best way to commute to work", my reply was the same, Brian shouted out "nah i think cycling would be much better". The following week the 3 lycra clad workers set off on their commute, Brian was knocked over by a bus and killed instantly. The 2 remaining new starters came over and asked me again, "whats the best way to commute to work??", " the train i said", "no way" Jeff said "the car is a faster option". The following week Jeffs head gasket blew while overheating in the traffic, he couldn't afford to fix his car and keep up his repayments, so he was declared bankrupt and now lives in a box in the company car park. I now sit next to my new friend Jenny on the train every morning and get a daily blow job. Then i woke up...... bugger!!!! :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
 
GrumpyGel said:
What I'm trying to get my head around - is how all variants use the same rear diff, but the V6 uses an IRD with different ratios to the others - how does that work - I'm confused.
Click to expand...

The IRD stands for Intermediate Reduction Drive. The Reduction bit is applied before the output to either the front or rear diff. The output to the front diff is inside the IRD. The output to the rear diff is driven at a ratio to take into account, the reduction of the separate rear diff. So in effect the total reduction of the IRD and diffs remains the same front and rear. Hope that makes sense?
 
GrumpyGel said:
What you got against VCU reconditioners Hippo? Sure there have been some bad ones over the years, but I haven't seen many (any?) complaints about Bells. With that in mind - might it just be possible that they can produce reconditioned VCUs that actually work close enough to LR spec?

Does it matter what goes in it, Silicon Grade 1614.7, Silicon Grade 1298.5, Treacle or Baked Beans - so long as it works well?
Click to expand...
None of them have bothered to take part in our tests. Years ago this nearly happened but we were let down. Others were approached but they're only interested in free advertising. Some even go to the extent of knocking our tests on their web site. We have the one wheel up test. It's not perfect, but it's what we have for those who don't want to take the vcu oft and test it on the bench. For many years we've gone to great lengths to get no where with testing. Mostly down to internal arguing. Testing is the only warning most peeps have. If values measured are high, then they should check their rear shoes are not catching (foot/hand brake). If results stay high then bench test the vcu which takes out any possibility of problems of resistance causing a higher time. The issue of using the word "genuine" annoys me as it's not genuine. If it were it would be the same as a new one. They may have come up with their own version but to go as far as to say it's genuine is misleading. When the Freelander transmission was designed LR would have done all sorts of rolling road tests to measure the strain in the transmission. Reconners won't have gone through the same tests with their version. What a vcu does at high speed is difficult to measure unless you have proper kit. Bench testing one with varying amounts of stuff inside isn't the same. Hence why I feel the word genuine is misleading. The vast majority have less resistance across the vcu which makes the Freelander feel different/looser, even if they have a perfectly good new one fitted before. The world of vcu's can be quite harsh. We get bashed for trying to test ours. Reconners bash each other. I have cut open my vcu so I may try the baked bean idea. ;)
 
When all said and done - the "wheel up test" is better than nothing. You don't have to do it. It's a guide. Like checking your brake thickness. It ain't critical, but those that do it have a better understanding if their braking system and are less likely to have to replace the disks and pads due to metal- metal contact.

If you think the test isn't very good - come up with a better one and tell everyone about it!
 
I've posted a video bench test, the best way IMO to test. I don't agree with the wheel up test as there are too many variables/masking effects so not interested in it.

End of, not posting any more as it always degrades into this kind of thing
 
austen said:
I've posted a video bench test, the best way IMO to test. I don't agree with the wheel up test as there are too many variables/masking effects so not interested in it.

End of, not posting any more as it always degrades into this kind of thing
Click to expand...

Is it possible to have a link to that video?
 
austen said:
I've posted a video bench test, the best way IMO to test. I don't agree with the wheel up test as there are too many variables/masking effects so not interested in it.

End of, not posting any more as it always degrades into this kind of thing
Click to expand...

Of course doing a couple of donuts in the carpark and a turnip test removes all those variables.
 
austen said:
I've posted a video bench test, the best way IMO to test. I don't agree with the wheel up test as there are too many variables/masking effects so not interested in it.

End of, not posting any more as it always degrades into this kind of thing
Click to expand...

Chill Austen :)
We agree to differ on the suitability or not of this test.
For what it is worth, you must be aware that your company name is promoted widely by us as the "man to see" when it comes to VCU replacements.
So it aint all bad news :)
 
GrumpyGel said:
Of course doing a couple of donuts in the carpark and a turnip test removes all those variables.
Click to expand...
I've phoned several reconner's to ask about replacing a vcu. I don't say who I am, reference this place direct, or pester them. When telling them I'm worried because of what I've read online... some are happy to degrade our tests. This I find annoying as they're fully aware of the test, why we test in that way as a starting point, and the fact we tell peeps to spin lifted rear wheels.. bench test... to see where the higher than normal resistance is. Not all will do the test, not all have the kit, and not all can physically remove a vcu so as said it's a starting point.

Some time ago when testing started we realised the results varied quite a bit on icasion. We realised why. The ideal situation would be to have lots of result to try to find an average, or average range. Results were slow to come in and it's true there was a lot of discussion (arguing). A discussion was had and more than 1 reconner was asked to help. They see lots of used vcu's so a good source point. I would even do the tests if I could borrow the vcu's. Other option was a volunteer local to wherever the reconner is located. It never happened. All sorts of excuses. There was no intention to interfere with their business. It was a way to speed up getting more results. Nothing more.

There are 4x reconner's who are members of this forum that I have come across. Not all post regular. Not all login regular. If not members when talking to them... they were invited. Not all tell peeps who they are. I could name them but I won't.

To use a different example... It's heart breaking to hear of someone or their garage undoing the wrong nut on a Jatco auto only to find they loose reverse gear. Worse still to find they or their garage has caused problems with their Jatco with unsuitable fluid or incorrect method/level (high or low). A similar feeling applies when someone joins LZ with a cracked ird or says leaves as theirs has cracked. Often the result is game over. It is for this type of reason why certain peeps on here have put so much work into this subject.
 
I'm gonna throw in my 2 pennoth here.

What the VCU does is to lock front and rear wheel rates together. But allow for a bit of slip so you dont smash the transmission when doing tight corners.

Its a remarkably simple and effective way to get permanent 4WD on a vehicle without having complicated gubbins in the car to engage it etc.

So what the VCU has to do is be stiff enough to transfer some power to the rear wheels when the front are spinning, but not so stiff that the transmission winds up when turning a tight corner.

I am going to make the radical suggestion that the stiffness levels of those two conditions are MILES apart, and provided the VCU is somewhere in that range its 'working well enough'.

That is, unless its totally and utterly siezed solid, there is probably enough slip to avoid damaging the transmission, and unless its totally spinning freely by hand, there is enough stiffness to provide the get-out-of-mud-free card.

Judging by talking to people who fix hippos, its very rare to get the VCU gone, but its a great money spinner for garages.

I am suggesting that people not wrry about their VCUs - by all means do the torque test, but remember, the only thing a really stiff VCU will do is take a long time to unwind any front-rear wheel speed differential, and as long as it has some give and you dont spend your time going round and round in small circles, you wont be damaging transmission, In fact those of us who had locked solid 4WD in the old days on landies will know the sound of a rabbit hopping landy that unwound its transmission when a wheel skipped over a bump.

So its unlikely that anything bar a totally locked solid VCU will damage anything. Except the two items that go anyway - the centre rubber mounted VCU bearings.

I'd suggest that peole change those with good quality units and run their hippos 1000 miles or so if they get what they think are 'vcu issues' ...chances are that will solve any issues.
 
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