Can you let me know the Issue of LRO that was in as I would be keen to read that....??

Or could you scan it in and post on here??

Always willing to read all there is on a subject and make informed and evidentiually based opinions....

I will when I
Get home later

defender300td1 said:

Ok when I had my fip recon on fitment of pump my chain was so slack that the chain sllipped a tooth, on disassembly it expired that the chain hydraulic tensinor had failed resulting in worn away guides now that was a very worn chain and sprockets . Did I have hot start issues no so I'm not convinced . When a pump gets a recon it is stripped cleaned has new seals and it tested with specialise equment not for the like of a main dealer or independent garage thus that is why dealers replace pumps and indeipendent remove and send them off to diesel injection places. Now rebuild is around £600 that will fix seals and have cleaned internals if internals need replacing it is cost effective to renew the whole pump at a cost of around £900. I am led to believe that the problem with hot start is down to a worn pump or the electrical side of pump the top part temp/s or temp
Sensors else where the top cost £300 so you might as well get a new pump this was explained in Lro international with no mention of timing chains

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Its not in LRO's interest to advertise a fix that bypasses all its advertisers and costs virtually nothing.

I've folllowed the Hot Start issue for years. There are different causes, some is internal wear in the pump resulting in reduced pump pressure (alledgedly partly curable by adding veg oil to your diesel), some down to internal failure of the timing solenoid (requires a pump rebuild) but the vast majority is down to stretch in the timing chain. I say, the vast majority because component failure is specific to each vehicle whereas wear is the one thing in common to every M51 engine, and virtually every M51 eventually has a hot start issue. QED

You may or may not be aware of the different fuel maps for hot and cold starting for the M51. Inherent in the fuel map is electronic timing control. The ebay 'Hot Start fix' invokes the cold fuel map/timing as well as the glow plugs when starting so is a similar type fix but will only give temporary relief. Once stretch has taken hold your engine is constantly running retarded timing and so will be down on power and use more fuel (a common complaint you'll hear from 'hot-fixers' about a year or so after they fitted the ebay fix.

In my own case my then 115,000 mile P38 went from being a absolute pig to start hot and requiring 2 gos of the glow plugs to start when cold to being a dream starter. It'll now start from cold without glowplugs. Solution, alter the static timing.

Wammers and I and others have had long discussions about this in the past about how and why it works. Those of us with faultmate use a live data reading called 'timing modulation' to set the static timing within parameters. Everyone who has done it has come back a happy camper. Wammers has often pointed out that this is a cure for the symptom not the root cause as we are not doing true static timing which can only be done with a guage. The opinion we've almost collectively formed is that the 'timing modulation' reading is the net timing which takes into account the effect of the timing solenoid as well as static timing.

So feel free to get your pump reconditioned but remember that when it comes back you will be re-timing it anyway so why not try and re-time it first?

wammers said:

Because there are different settings for cold start and hot start. When the engine is cold the fuel quantity servo is set for fast idle giving more fuel. And the timing is at it's static position. When the engine starts the injection timing is advanced to suit the rpm when signals start to be recieved from number four injector and crank sensor. Until the engine is running or at least the engine is cranked fast enough to present signals to the ECU none of this can take place. When the pump timing is set correctly static at TDC number one, it is set with lift on the cam and the delivery valve parially open. If the chains stretch the injection is retarded, there is no lift on the cam and the delivery valve is shut. So you don't get any fuel for a hot start until the engine is cranking and signals start from the sensors. That is why the hot start problem seems to go away if you fit a new powerful battery to crank the engine faster. The hot start conteracts chain stretch and therefore lack of hot start fuel by tricking the ECU into thinking the engine is cold and setting amongst other things fast idle fuel. The small amount of extra fuel and the glow plugs give you your hot start.

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That's the best explanation I have seen Tony

^^^^^What they all said too^^^^^^

as requested i have looked at the hot fix kit on ebay and it tells you to look at why on landy zone dated 1 /4/2005 after reading all 18 pages there was no metion of timing chain slack i noticed 3 people had the tops replaced all happy custormors. fortunaltly my pump only had a leak i have not sufferd as yet the syptoms after speaking to Panda Diesel - number one Diesel Service Centre it was them that asured me that the issue lies within worn pumps and its electrics bit like a scalectricks volts move the magnets that enrich fuell ect inside the pump.its these that jam and play up also, saint did say the pump chain but the cam chain runs of the same sprocket to if there was play surley that would affect the cam timing as well like you say datatek its more than one aspect ps editions were 2009/2011

It would be easier to read if I didn't have to stand on my head.

Yea sorry

I am in total shock.....

'Cut the wire to the Temp sensor so it thinks its cold all the time....' WTF

'Pour Water..' over a Hot Pump....WTF, that could lead to a fractured pump casing surely, due to the sudden change in temp...!!!

Also it mentions 'if the temp sensor is inaccurate...' the Fuel system EDC/ECM uses a different temp sender than the one for the Dash Gauge....WTF...!!!

I was considering renewing a subscription to LRO as I haven't had it for a while, if that is the level of their Experts...then I think I'll keep the £4.00 odd in my pocket and save up to have my pump re-timed.....

come on saint common sence, just come of a motorway hot and warm the car around the block hot

defender300td1 said:

come on saint common sence, just come of a motorway hot and warm the car around the block hot

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You know this and I know this, but will the rest of the world who have little common sense....heck my sister still uses a knife in a plugged in toaster to get the bread out....she hasn't learnt that the tingley feeling up your arm and sharp pain is her being electrocuted.....

People like that will pour Cold water onto a Hot pump and then wonder what that crack is for and place a piece of old chewing gum and tin foil over it to stop the fuel leaking out....

Top work on the scans though...really appreciate it.

lro mag or should it be britpart monthly!
of course wear in other things can cause hot start probs but 99% of the time it is a slack chain poor static timing of the pump remember we are not talking much we are working in adjustments of less than a mm
people who have there pumps reconditioned when it is refitted bet most are set to 1mm and not the 0.8mm if memory serves correct which is advanced and cures the prob.
the tools to set the static timing can be bought for nearly the same as a hot start kit so why not try it before sending the pump away costs a hell of a lot less!!!!!
personally that article is rubbish and written by a fool! just see how many people on here have reset the static timing and cured there problem google bmw m51 hot start issues and look at bmw forums it is such common knowledge that to think a lot else really is just throwing money down the drain and wasting time.

Only thing you would achieve by pouring water on pump apart from a potential cracked casing. Is you would cool the fuel temperature sensor. Which would infact cause the pump to inject less fuel. When the fuel is cold it is more dense so requires less to be injected to maintain the fuel/air mixture ratio.

What I heard from some old timers is that pouring water on a diesel pump was a means of diagnosing a pump with worn internals. The logic being that by cooling the pump casing relative to the internals (which would cool at a different rate due to being immersed in diesel) there would be an increase in pump pressure supplied to the injectors. If the engine started after cooling the pump casing then the diagnosis was worn pump internals.

It is unlikely that it will have any other effect on a P38 as it is only a fuel temp sensor that is in the pump, not engine coolant temp IIRC which is what is used to trigger a cold temp start. Wammers is correct that fuel temp is used in metering the fuel but it won't alter the fuel map/timing to the effect being discussed.

SpudH said:

What I heard from some old timers is that pouring water on a diesel pump was a means of diagnosing a pump with worn internals. The logic being that by cooling the pump casing relative to the internals (which would cool at a different rate due to being immersed in diesel) there would be an increase in pump pressure supplied to the injectors. If the engine started after cooling the pump casing then the diagnosis was worn pump internals.

It is unlikely that it will have any other effect on a P38 as it is only a fuel temp sensor that is in the pump, not engine coolant temp IIRC which is what is used to trigger a cold temp start. Wammers is correct that fuel temp is used in metering the fuel but it won't alter the fuel map/timing to the effect being discussed.

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Correct.

I am quite shocked by the nonsense in those LRO articles! Do the glow plugs even come on when the engine is hot (I know the light doesn't)?!?

Cheers,

Jerry

jerrytlr said:

I am quite shocked by the nonsense in those LRO articles! Do the glow plugs even come on when the engine is hot (I know the light doesn't)?!?

Cheers,

Jerry

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Only if you have a hot fix fitted. If you haven't and they come on when the engine is hot, you need to be changing the ECU temp sensor PDQ.

Old thread I know but does anyone know the value of the resistor that should be used?
I have a adjustable timed relay kicking about that I can use

gfromleeds said:

Old thread I know but does anyone know the value of the resistor that should be used?
I have a adjustable timed relay kicking about that I can use

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The value of the resistor will be determined by the type of timed relay you have.

Ah so probably best to just buy a complete kit?
the timed circuit ive got is a maplins jobbie when a positive or negative is conected it opens or closes a digital relay(depending on how its conected)
can be set anywere between 0.1second upto 3 minutes
because its all chip controlled it gives almost 0 resistance