K

Knut Eggum

Member
It is difficult and expensive to get a "Timing Gauge" for a 2.25 S3 diesel. There are several options, a used original 605863 or an MS67B, or a new from http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Engine_tools1-p2.html.

I want to make one myself. Is there anyone who knows exactly the angle between the wide teeth on the shaft for the distrbution pump and the pointer on the engine block?

The service manual says you should set the flywheel to 13 degrees BTDC and use a timing gauge, 605863 or MS67B. The MS67B is to be set to 22 degrees.

I have taken a picture of the shaft and draw two lines. I assume that the angle is 22 degree. Does anyone having a "Timing Gauge" confirm that I have thought correctly and the arrow on the figure match the pointer on the engine?
Aksling.png
MS67B.PNG
Timing gauge 605863.PNG
Apprroximately 20 grader.PNG
 
Knut Eggum said:
It is difficult and expensive to get a "Timing Gauge" for a 2.25 S3 diesel. There are several options, a used original 605863 or an MS67B, or a new from http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Engine_tools1-p2.html.

I want to make one myself. Is there anyone who knows exactly the angle between the wide teeth on the shaft for the distrbution pump and the pointer on the engine block?

The service manual says you should set the flywheel to 13 degrees BTDC and use a timing gauge, 605863 or MS67B. The MS67B is to be set to 22 degrees.

I have taken a picture of the shaft and draw two lines. I assume that the angle is 22 degree. Does anyone having a "Timing Gauge" confirm that I have thought correctly and the arrow on the figure match the pointer on the engine?
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you cant get it wrong as iirc skew gear has 11 teeth if its out it looks out only one position will look anywhere near 20 degrees, but wide tooth is 27.6 degrees according to my gauge
 
I do not think I fully understand you. I will make a tool and mount a pointer on the shaft. The pointer should point to the timing pointers on the engine block. Do you say that the angle between the line on the photo on the wide tooth and the arrow pointing towards the timing pointer should be 27.6 degrees?
 
A nice idea - I'm not sure it'll be worth the effort though. I'm saving up for a sensor that will measure point of delivery on #1 injection pipe that will connect to a timing light...
 
Interesting project. Possibly I should think of something like this instead of a mechanical gauge. I like electronics so I can make something from scratch.
 
Knut Eggum said:
Interesting project. Possibly I should think of something like this instead of a mechanical gauge. I like electronics so I can make something from scratch.
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The static timing - with bits of cut card (for example) - could still worth doing just to see how reliable / unreliable the timing chain connection actually is (many people seem to have trouble with this timing). But I personally wouldn't try and replicate a complicated tool that essentially does something that is rather simple.

The benefit of a point of delivery timing light set up is that you can see what actually happens and if the electronics can keep up you might even be able to check for advance retard regulation at higher rev ranges. Downside: I have read some reports that the Gunson sensor isn't always all that reliable which is why I haven't jumped at the chance of buying it. I get the feeling I'd have to do a fair amount of investigation of the Gunson tool to make sure the readings I was getting were what I thought I was getting. This kind of pushes me towards a potentially cheaper home made solution.
 
Knut Eggum said:
I do not think I fully understand you. I will make a tool and mount a pointer on the shaft. The pointer should point to the timing pointers on the engine block. Do you say that the angle between the line on the photo on the wide tooth and the arrow pointing towards the timing pointer should be 27.6 degrees?
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wide tooth covers 27.6 degrees ,if your making a tool it only has to have pointer 20 degrees from center of master spline (ie wide tooth)
 
Thank you jamesmartin. I will be able to make such a gauge. It is not easy to figure out such details. The MS67B gauge must have a different zero point because it should be set to 22 degrees.
Last night, I also looked for sensors or transducers to measure the pressure in the diesel pipes. Many types, but they were expensive they too.
 
I have made a tool of a broken shaft, a bolt and a bit of plexiglas. It was not that hard, but the problem is the angle I asked about in my first post. jamesmartin replied that the angle is 20 degrees, but it is not. I adjusted to 20 degrees, and the car barely ran up a small hillside. I had to set it back again. I would recommend that those who do not know what they are doing stops answering questions in forums. I hope there are some out there who know the angle I asked about in my first post. If you know, please answer, if you do not know, do not answer.
Timing tool 1.JPG
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Knut Eggum said:
I have made a tool of a broken shaft, a bolt and a bit of plexiglas. It was not that hard, but the problem is the angle I asked about in my first post. jamesmartin replied that the angle is 20 degrees, but it is not. I adjusted to 20 degrees, and the car barely ran up a small hillside. I had to set it back again. I would recommend that those who do not know what they are doing stops answering questions in forums. I hope there are some out there who know the angle I asked about in my first post. If you know, please answer, if you do not know, do not answer.
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who are you making a recommadation to ? the master spline is set 20 degrees to the front securing stud away from the head unlike petrol engines, if youve set it as i said youve made mistake somewhere else usual poor cam timing, id be surprised if many on here had set as many of those engines up as i have
 
As an aside, I inquired about the Churchill timing tool from Dingocroft. Actually ordered one in fact. The price on the dingocroft site is less than half what Bosch want. The guy I spoke to thinks that perhaps Bosch have lost the tooling, or just can't be bothered, despite the 70 day lead time. Needless to say I didn't buy one.
 
Big Sandy said:
As an aside, I inquired about the Churchill timing tool from Dingocroft. Actually ordered one in fact. The price on the dingocroft site is less than half what Bosch want. The guy I spoke to thinks that perhaps Bosch have lost the tooling, or just can't be bothered, despite the 70 day lead time. Needless to say I didn't buy one.
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tool isnt that important as you can fine adjust skew gear you can only fit it in 1 of 11 tooths, and unless cam timing is bang on your going to be either side of 20 to some extent, getting cam timing right is what puts the master in an obvious to see correct alignment
 
Knut, if I where James Martin I would have taken extreme offense at the comment you made. James is THE guru on these vehicles. Do not doubt him.
I have used a timing tool on my 2.25 diesel set up with a new timing chain and still needed to do a final tweak to the pump timing to get it delivering power with little or no smoke.
 
Perhaps not asking pointless questions is a better alternative to receiving answers you don't understand.
As clearly stated. With only 11 teeth on a cog, if its one step out, a chimp on acid can see its out. You don't need a tool to set it.
 
jamesmartin said:
tool isnt that important as you can fine adjust skew gear you can only fit it in 1 of 11 tooths, and unless cam timing is bang on your going to be either side of 20 to some extent, getting cam timing right is what puts the master in an obvious to see correct alignment
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Thanks for that, that's the way I've done it in the past. I just fancied having the appropriate tool...you knows how it is. :D
 
I have adjusted to 22 degrees and it helped. The car goes a lot better. "The green bible" Repair Oreration manual says that you set the MS67B to 22 degrees. I do not hav the tool but tried the angle. It's bad that the manual does not tell the angle, but just how to use the two timing tols.

To the figure shown above that shows 20 degrees. The manual says turning the engine to 13 degrees BTDC, until the master spline stands approximately 20 degrees from the center line. It says approximatley and 4 o'clock. This is because you have to turn the engine twice for the diesel pump to rotate once. Master spline can therefore be approximately 20 degrees, or opposite to 200 degrees when the pointer is at 13 degree BTDC.. Approximately 20 degrees are correct, approximately 200 degrees are at the wrong side. After turning the engine to approximately 20 degrees , set the timing tool and adjust to the correct angle, and this is the right angle I'm looking for. The angle between the master spline and the pointer on the engine block.

I think the manufacturers of engines know best how to adjust. Land Rover says that you should use the timing tool. Therefore you should use one. If you do not have a timing tool, you can of course try it out in a different way, but it will hardly be correct.

I'll ask at other forums, chances there are somebody out there who know or can measure the angle to use.
 
Knut Eggum said:
I have adjusted to 22 degrees and it helped. The car goes a lot better. "The green bible" Repair Oreration manual says that you set the MS67B to 22 degrees. I do not hav the tool but tried the angle. It's bad that the manual does not tell the angle, but just how to use the two timing tols.

To the figure shown above that shows 20 degrees. The manual says turning the engine to 13 degrees BTDC, until the master spline stands approximately 20 degrees from the center line. It says approximatley and 4 o'clock. This is because you have to turn the engine twice for the diesel pump to rotate once. Master spline can therefore be approximately 20 degrees, or opposite to 200 degrees when the pointer is at 13 degree BTDC.. Approximately 20 degrees are correct, approximately 200 degrees are at the wrong side. After turning the engine to approximately 20 degrees , set the timing tool and adjust to the correct angle, and this is the right angle I'm looking for. The angle between the master spline and the pointer on the engine block.

I think the manufacturers of engines know best how to adjust. Land Rover says that you should use the timing tool. Therefore you should use one. If you do not have a timing tool, you can of course try it out in a different way, but it will hardly be correct.

I'll ask at other forums, chances there are somebody out there who know or can measure the angle to use.
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This is a four stroke engine - you must indeed be at the correct position to measure this dreaded angle.

Stop and think about what has been said in this thread so far.

The most important point is not to get fixated on a particular numerical value - consider how the injector pump (IP) is connected to the other moving parts =>

There is a gear + spigot affair that connects the IP to the camshaft...

...the camshaft is connected via cogs and a chain to the crankshaft...

(Think about it!)

...if the camshaft timing isn't correct then the an angle shown at the spigot on top of the camshaft isn't going to be "correct"
 
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