Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Was this after the failed start attempt?
Was this after the failed start attempt?
CPD1973
Active Member
Yes, I think when I tried to start the car in gear it lurched forward but there was a rock in the way, I think it was at this point that the one or more of the pulleys slipped under the loose belt, the top cams were as you can see in the earlier post, about half a notch out and the crank one was out about a max of 10mm.
I then realigned everything and it would not start so i had my volunteers spray easy start into the opened air intake after taking off the air filter housing.
Big flash of flame and the engine started, very rough at first and I was sure I had totalled it..... I then left it a while and tried again, this time it started without easy start. It was running and driving but seemed to be miss fireing. I decided to leave it overnight.
This morning it started on the first turn of the key and is running ok. There is definatly something different, I’m pretty sure I can hear the tappets more than before if that’s possible ? It’s ticking over but there is a little shudder quite often, it’s like it’s missing very slightly but not enough to cause problems.
It’s not back firing now.
Test drive this morning was good smoother up the hill. Maybe the residual easy start that was in the air feed needed to be worked out of the system.
Really hoping it’s still in a usable condition after all my work... lesson learnt.
Thanks.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Yes, if some valves touched the piston, then the head can tip over, increasing tappet clearance.
The strange running could well be due to loss of compression in one or more cylinders. The valves will straighten slightly within a few minutes running, but will always leak afterwards.
Sometimes a bent valve can break off, messing up the engine.
If the car is destined to stay on an island for the rest of its life, then I'd just drive it until is fails completely.
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CPD1973
Active Member
Hi @rob_bell five years ago it went to a garage for a compression test and failed, I assumed it was the head gasket but it kept going without a glitch just a lot of water topping up. Turned out to be the water pump and not the head gasket..... just a shame I did not recheck the new belt tension after fitting, I had turned the engine two or three full revaluations and then re tightened it but I should have checked it after giving it a good run...... we live and learn. I will now just keep on driving it until the tappets fail as I guess that’s a serious job and not one I am up for.
rob_bell
Well-Known Member
I wonder if you are mixing up a cylinder compression test to a cooling system compression test?
You really need to measure what the cylinder compression is: if there is a bent valve that is not sealing properly, the compression on that cylinder will be lower than the others. It'll just confirm that there is likely a damaged valve.
Alternatively, you may be lucky, and the valves are fine. Poor running could be equally explained by the cam timing being out.
As mentioned earlier in the thread by others, the crank position needs to be in the timing position (as illustrated earlier) and then the two camshaft pulleys should align with the inlet and outlet marks either pointing directly at one another, or pointing away from one another (depending where you are on the stroke).
If, with the crankshaft in the timing position (also known as the "safe" position), the inlet and outlet marks do not align, the cam timing is out, and one of the cams has jumped a tooth.
This takes you back to square 1 and the belt and covers will need removing and then replaced with correct tension.
Luckily, this is not too much of a task - just a bit of a pain, but you've been there before, so easier on repeat
You really need to measure what the cylinder compression is: if there is a bent valve that is not sealing properly, the compression on that cylinder will be lower than the others. It'll just confirm that there is likely a damaged valve.
Alternatively, you may be lucky, and the valves are fine. Poor running could be equally explained by the cam timing being out.
As mentioned earlier in the thread by others, the crank position needs to be in the timing position (as illustrated earlier) and then the two camshaft pulleys should align with the inlet and outlet marks either pointing directly at one another, or pointing away from one another (depending where you are on the stroke).
If, with the crankshaft in the timing position (also known as the "safe" position), the inlet and outlet marks do not align, the cam timing is out, and one of the cams has jumped a tooth.
This takes you back to square 1 and the belt and covers will need removing and then replaced with correct tension.
Luckily, this is not too much of a task - just a bit of a pain, but you've been there before, so easier on repeat
CPD1973
Active Member
Yes I am...... still getting my head round all this. Unless there is an easy way of measuring the compression at home it’s not possible as this is an island with NO services at all. Getting the car to a garage is out of the question due to logistics and cost of ferry’s and truck away costs. The timing was out as explained earlier but I have reset it to bang on correct, but not before the damage was done and hence the loud tappits and the slight shuddering from the engine..... I am pretty annoyed with myself as I had worked really hard to get it all perfect but that’s just life. I am now confident that should I ever need to change a timing belt again I will be SUPPER cautious and triple check everything. Thanks for your input. Col
Alibro
Well-Known Member
If the two cam pulleys are half a tooth out it's because one of them is a whole tooth out. If you are happy you can refit the belt it would make sense to try and get it right.
The method I used was to hook the belt around the crank, then feed it around the exhaust cam while trying to turn the cam back just enough to catch the belt. It works but is a bit of a faff and it normally takes a few goes to get it. That's why I suggested getting it correct around the cam pulleys then feeding it down to the crank.
If you have everything in exactly the right position you won't be able to get the belt on without it being one tooth out on the exhaust cam because of the tension required.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Can you explain what you mean by 10mm out?
Make sure you do a Google search to confirm the correct position for the crank with the pulley on and off as it uses different marks.
rob_bell
Well-Known Member
No worries! There's plenty to get one's head around isn't there?
You can buy cheap compression testers off the bay of fleas for a few beer tokens. You unscrew the spark plug and screw in the tester and run the starter motor. The number generally is not too vital (healthy should be over 140psi), what you are more interested is whether there is a significant difference between 1 or more cylinders compared to the other (unless all the valves are bent?) - in which case, all the cylinders will show a low compression ratio.
As Alibro says, it's worth making sure that the timing is now spot on. Lots of ways to do this, but I keep the belt tension high on the right side of the engine as it comes up and over the two camshaft sprockets, and then the tension on the left side is dealt with by the tensioner. All my engines have manual tensioners (even my Freelander now - since I replaced the cylinder head with an earlier casting!) - so may be that is easier?
To be honest, it's great you did the work yourself: every day is a school day IMO!
Hey, not being funny but when is the last time it was serviced?
Has it ever had new coils?
My freelander only gets noisey tappets when it's overdue a service. It's usually because the oil filters getting blocked and the oils full of shi**.
The oilways in the cylinder head are tiny so get blocked easily, if it's not been regularly serviced it probably needs a good flush/clean out.
Rossco
Has it ever had new coils?
My freelander only gets noisey tappets when it's overdue a service. It's usually because the oil filters getting blocked and the oils full of shi**.
The oilways in the cylinder head are tiny so get blocked easily, if it's not been regularly serviced it probably needs a good flush/clean out.
Rossco
CPD1973
Active Member
So the last time I changed the belt I put a tip ex line where it was originally on the crank pulley where the timing belt fits on, I carried this over onto the block so as to be double sure it would be easy to see where it went, there are also the two timing dots on the crank pulley that line up with the straingt line on the block but I thought it looked a bit vague and that’s why I put an extra accurate line on. When I boshed it with starting it with a loose timing belt I guess more than one thing slipped as even though the cam pulleys were very close to being aligned the crank pulley was offset when the cam pulleys were aligned. I guess it was about 5 teeth out. I reset it to the correct position as indicated by the timing dots and my white tip ex line. I then realigned the cam pulleys and slotted in the locking tool. I then put the belt on starting at the top and using cloths pegs to make sure it stayed snugly in position, trying to keep any slack on the side with the tenshioner. I then aligned the tenshioner side and then slipped the belt onto the crank pulley, slipped is not the correct word as it’s a very tight fit but I worked out how to get it on without frigging the belt.
Hey, well that's the first place you went wrong.
You do not install a timing belt starting on the camshaft!!
You should be starting at the crankshaft and putting the belt on the front side of the engine first i.e
crank up to exhaust cam then inlet cam then around the tensioner.
If you do it that way you'll have no issues.
I personally use a 6mm or 7mm deep socket nose first between the engine casing and belt at crank to hold it in place while you put the rest of the belt on.
Rossco
You do not install a timing belt starting on the camshaft!!
You should be starting at the crankshaft and putting the belt on the front side of the engine first i.e
crank up to exhaust cam then inlet cam then around the tensioner.
If you do it that way you'll have no issues.
I personally use a 6mm or 7mm deep socket nose first between the engine casing and belt at crank to hold it in place while you put the rest of the belt on.
Rossco
CPD1973
Active Member
@rob_bell thanks I will track down a compression tester if for nothing more than interest to see what’s what. And yes there is a lot to learn but I love learning and I like a challenge if it’s not to massive a job as I am building a house at the moment and that’s my massive job...... I don’t have a garage (yet) and living on the west coast of Scotland and trying to get a dry day to work on an engine in October is like hoping to see a unicorn on the way to the ferry..... as i said it’s a shame I did not retentions the belt first time round, auto tensioner are as bad as you all say they are...... I will quadruple check that the timing is spot on but I think it is as I was being very diligent last time round.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Unless you turn either the crank or the cam back a little it is almost impossible to fit the belt correctly. The number of people with cam pulleys half a tooth out will confirm this.
CPD1973
Active Member
@Ross Tait hay Rossco thanks for your input. I did it that way first time round and it worked I’m not sure why I did it this way this time........ I WILL go back and look at this and hope that I’ve got it out by half a tooth.
CPD1973
Active Member
I am hearing you and WILL go back and recheck / redo and hope this is the problem ! would be great if it is.
Hey, ah I never read the whole thread tbh with you it's ten pages long and appears to have started at least a year ago.
It caught my interest for a few reasons including the fact that your up here in Scotland lol there's not many of us on forums usually.
Well cracked plastics on coils would give you misfire issues if that's one of your current issues. At that age they are old anyway regardless of mileage matey. If you replace them don't buy aftermarket, I've got a pile of them in my garden right now which are all good reasons why not to, an original out a breakers yard would probably last longer.
Btw tappets rarely suddenly go very noisey by themselves. A lack of oil or pressure is usually the cause. Even a badly timed engine won't have noisey tappets because of that.
Rossco
It caught my interest for a few reasons including the fact that your up here in Scotland lol there's not many of us on forums usually.
Well cracked plastics on coils would give you misfire issues if that's one of your current issues. At that age they are old anyway regardless of mileage matey. If you replace them don't buy aftermarket, I've got a pile of them in my garden right now which are all good reasons why not to, an original out a breakers yard would probably last longer.
Btw tappets rarely suddenly go very noisey by themselves. A lack of oil or pressure is usually the cause. Even a badly timed engine won't have noisey tappets because of that.
Rossco
