Alibro
Well-Known Member
For as long as our beloved DVLA are 100% against converting cars sadly this is unlikely.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I know. It's nuts isn't it.For as long as our beloved DVLA are 100% against converting cars sadly this is unlikely.
The DVLA should allow for a change of taxation class along with the fuel change.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen ICE is currently worse than diesel as the only realistic and economical source for the hydrogen is natural gas which makes it more polluting than running the equipment on Dino juice.
Some day when we have the world powered by renewables with loads of excess electricity green hydrogen may make sense but today it is a myth put out by the fossil fuel companies.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I'm sure I read that the owner of JCB is a fossil fuel supporter, which would explain why he's so dedicated to this hydrogen boondogle.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
As above, green hydrogen is something like 4 x the price of equivalent leccy so unless your mega rich or just love throwing away your money it makes no sense.
Unless of course you sell natural gas, then hydrogen makes perfect sense but it ain't green.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
With current technologies, hydrogen works best with a hydrogen fuel cell. A hydrogen fuel cell makes electricity, which is stored in a battery. So a hydrogen fuel cell car is an electric car only with the electricity coming from a expensive and polluting source. Not to mention the relatively short life of the fuel cell, the who thing ends up as an expensive and pointless power source, when lower cost more reliable battery electric vehicles already exist.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen is being pushed as a power source by oil companies who stand to make a fortune making it from gas. Newspapers and TV companies get a lot of their money from the same oil companies so it is no surprise they keep pushing it as the next big thing. The big problem with hydrogen is it is so inefficient to make using electricity so the only way it makes financial sense is to make it from gas which means it is extremely dirty.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
From the research I've done, hydrogen from NG uses 3 times the amount of energy to produce than it provides when used. At that rate it's less efficient than petrol, which has a 2 to 1 ratio.
If hydrogen is then burnt in an ICE at 40% efficiency, then we're in a worst state than can be imagined.
One thing I love about BEVs is the electricity to power them can come from anywhere, roof top solar, wind power, home electrical grid, DIY solar generator, even a petrol generator if needed.
Unfortunately the same can't be said for hydrogen or petrol car. Diesel has alternative fuels available, although those have issues too.
BEV is currently the best and cleanest option, cleaner still if an old car can be converted to electric power.
If hydrogen is then burnt in an ICE at 40% efficiency, then we're in a worst state than can be imagined.
One thing I love about BEVs is the electricity to power them can come from anywhere, roof top solar, wind power, home electrical grid, DIY solar generator, even a petrol generator if needed.
Unfortunately the same can't be said for hydrogen or petrol car. Diesel has alternative fuels available, although those have issues too.
BEV is currently the best and cleanest option, cleaner still if an old car can be converted to electric power.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
I just watched the Harry's garage video and it is very interesting, if their claims regarding NOX emissions is true then they have a great system. However while many of the things in it are true I thought it was interesting that Harry brought up most of the real issues of hydrogen and they were only able to answer a few of them. Hydrogen may be suitable on a local scale for some but on a worldwide scale it is still a huge part of the global warming problem as the vast majority of hydrogen produced today is from gas and all the carbon produced is released into the atmosphere.
Mention hydrogen and everyone starts talking about carbon capture and storage like it is the obvious answer but it's been talked about for for over twenty years and (for very good reason i.e. cost) has never been done on any appreciable scale.
It would be great if green hydrogen could be produced in the scale and at the price mentioned in the video but i fear we are many years from that being possible.
Mention hydrogen and everyone starts talking about carbon capture and storage like it is the obvious answer but it's been talked about for for over twenty years and (for very good reason i.e. cost) has never been done on any appreciable scale.
It would be great if green hydrogen could be produced in the scale and at the price mentioned in the video but i fear we are many years from that being possible.
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kernowsvenski
Well-Known Member
It's a bit of a shame really as on paper, hydrogen seems a sensible switch. Existing infrastructure could be converted, i.e. distribution operations delivering fuel from production plants (like refineries) to filling station tanks near you. You could rock up and after five mins you've got your several hundred mile range, and only water out of the back. Much better than queuing for two hours at a charger to get an extra 100 miles range whilst you wait around. However, the reality of the massive energy consumption required for the production of hydrogen, and managing the volatility of the end product make it most definitely not the panacea currently
Alibro
Well-Known Member
I don't remember the exact number but it was something like 10 hydrogen deliver trucks would be needed to replace one petrol delivery truck so transport by road is not practical. In the video Harry was shocked at how little hydrogen was in the delivery truck.
Creating pipelines across the country that can carry hydrogen without losing most of it through leaks is also not practical.
Electrolysis onsite may be practical but only helps if purely green leccy is used and if all cars were hydrogen it would not be practical.
The only economical way to produce hydrogen today is from gas which is worse than using diesel or petrol and it would still need to be transported.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Electricity is by far the easiest and most efficient energy source we have.
If we store excess green electricity in battery banks near where it's used, then the demand for less green electricity will be reduced.
Also unlike hydrogen, you don't need special tankers to carry it about, and most of the electrical infrastructure is likely already there.
To me the main advantage of hydrogen for a vehicle is time to recharge, but BEVs are getting faster to charge all the time, especially now 800V architecture has come along. However charging speed on a road trip is the exception not the norm, when a vast majority of BEV owners will charge overnight in the same way we charge our phones.
If we store excess green electricity in battery banks near where it's used, then the demand for less green electricity will be reduced.
Also unlike hydrogen, you don't need special tankers to carry it about, and most of the electrical infrastructure is likely already there.
To me the main advantage of hydrogen for a vehicle is time to recharge, but BEVs are getting faster to charge all the time, especially now 800V architecture has come along. However charging speed on a road trip is the exception not the norm, when a vast majority of BEV owners will charge overnight in the same way we charge our phones.
JCB are currently making great inroads in hydrogen engines - not hydrogen fuel cells but ICE hydrogen engines.
Although they are mainly concentrating on engines for tractors, tele-handlers and the like, they aren't seeing the same disparity with petrol or diesel that you are talking about.
The storage space used for hydrogen (in cylinders) is comparable with what you would expect for a petrol tank, given slightly more energy delivered.
They were initially expecting to use the same engine bottom-end for hydrogen that they do with diesel but they ended up redesigning it completely, for maximum efficiency.
So there really isn't a massive difference operation wise, except that hydrogen is obviously much cleaner and slightly quieter.
The biggest difference though is cost of hydrogen production (as has been mentioned) but this is coming down as advances are made.
Plus no need for the nasty cobalt mines in DRC.
We just need countries like India who have an excess of sunlight to get on board with solar electrolysis - maybe they could even become a world power in hydrogen production!
Although they are mainly concentrating on engines for tractors, tele-handlers and the like, they aren't seeing the same disparity with petrol or diesel that you are talking about.
The storage space used for hydrogen (in cylinders) is comparable with what you would expect for a petrol tank, given slightly more energy delivered.
They were initially expecting to use the same engine bottom-end for hydrogen that they do with diesel but they ended up redesigning it completely, for maximum efficiency.
So there really isn't a massive difference operation wise, except that hydrogen is obviously much cleaner and slightly quieter.
The biggest difference though is cost of hydrogen production (as has been mentioned) but this is coming down as advances are made.
Plus no need for the nasty cobalt mines in DRC.
We just need countries like India who have an excess of sunlight to get on board with solar electrolysis - maybe they could even become a world power in hydrogen production!
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Thinking of agricultural use, JCB have developed a fuel bowser that can carry almost the equivalent amount of hydrogen that it's diesel counterpart would normally carry.
The amount isn't quite as much but is as near as makes very little difference.
This isn't obviously for long distances, where I'm sure there are different requirements, but it is encouraging.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Someone is giving incorrect figures there. It's technically impossible for hydrogen to take up the same space as diesel and give the same amount of energy. Hydrogen at 700 bar of pressure (about the practical limits of container design) holds just 1.4kWhr of energy per litre of volume, but diesel holds over 10kWhr for the same 1 litre, and doesn't need a pressure vessel to contain it.
Add to this the under 40% efficiency of an ICE engine, and it doesn't take a mathematician to work out that hydrogen won't be a practical or green alternative to diesel. It's actually much more green to use vegetable sourced bio diesel in the engine, which again doesn't need to be stored in a pressure vessel at stupid high pressures.