Arctic2 · Sep 28, 2020

Nodge68 said:
I've read that too. I kinda discounted it as the misfire when cold is constant and only on No3 cylinder.
After I've replaced the crank sensor, I'll investigate the Pedal Position Sensor. I'm sure I can graph the output of the PPS, so I might have a go at that in the meantime.

I'm tempted to ask over on the other forum for ideas, but I get the impression that the members seem to be more worried about cosmetic improvements than getting there hands dirty with proper mechanics stuff.

Hi Nodge.
Just ask on there some are very good at the proper mechanics stuff, most are about how the car looks etc and how it drives nice, but 98% will visit the tech one way or the other sooner or later. they then take that knowledge to the main stealer LR

Nodge68 · Sep 28, 2020

Arctic2 said:
Hi Nodge.
Just ask on there some are very good at the proper mechanics stuff, most are about how the car looks etc and how it drives nice, but 98% will visit the tech one way or the other sooner or later. they then take that knowledge to the main stealer LR

I will ask over there if the replacement crank sensor doesn't fix it.

I still don't understand how the PTM logs a code if injectors 1,2 and 4 are disconnected when cold, but it only logs a code for No3, once it's warmed up and No3 has started running. It doesn't make any sense at all.

SWalker · Sep 29, 2020

Nodge68 said:
I still don't understand how the PTM logs a code if injectors 1,2 and 4 are disconnected when cold, but it only logs a code for No3, once it's warmed up and No3 has started running. It doesn't make any sense at all.

I can picture it as a worn bit of wire partially shorting out somewhere loading up the signal so that it doesn't get to the injector and the ecu can see the load as an injector, so doesn't trip a code.

Nodge68 · Sep 29, 2020

SWalker said:
I can picture it as a worn bit of wire partially shorting out somewhere loading up the signal so that it doesn't get to the injector and the ecu can see the load as an injector, so doesn't trip a code.

That's also a possibility. I'll be checking the harness resistance and integrity over the weekend.

andyfreelandy · Sep 29, 2020

SWalker said:
I can picture it as a worn bit of wire partially shorting out somewhere loading up the signal so that it doesn't get to the injector

Good point, worth checking the insulation between cores as the high voltage spike could cause breakdown and the system read this as the injector.

Have you got a Megger?? 500v insulation tester. Obvs with loom fully disconnected!!

Nodge68 · Sep 29, 2020

andyfreelandy said:
Have you got a Megger?? 500v insulation tester.

No, unfortunately not.

andyfreelandy said:
worth checking the insulation between cores as the high voltage spike could cause breakdown and the system read this as the injector.

I do have a very sensitive DMM, which can measure the resistance of the hardness, and the capacitance too, which might help.

I still don't understand how the PTM doesn't register a code on that injector, until it's running.
It's very odd indeed.

Nodge68 · Sep 30, 2020

Today I received this.

Which cost just £12, and I figured it would be worth changing to eliminate it as the cause of the engine misfire.

It only takes 10 minutes to change, most of that time is used taking the arch liner off.

So once changed, I kept my fingers crossed that it would fix the problem. Unfortunately it didn't, so at the weekend I'll be spending more time checking everything carefully.

One thing I did notice this time was the amount of smoke being produced when cold. I don't remember seeing this amount of smoke when I ran it at the weekend, so I don't know what the cause is. It stops smoking when it's been running for a couple of minutes, but it is a concern.

I'll see if this settles down, once the new piston has bedded in.

Alibro · Sep 30, 2020

I was going to mention a meggar too. Maybe worth asking a local leccy if you can borrow one.

SWalker · Oct 1, 2020

if you think you would make use of it scopes are getting pretty cheap
Amazon product
that would be the best cheap one but needs a laptop to run
Amazon product
Amazon product
Amazon product
or these are more stand alone but would not use them for absolute measurement - just a look see
or this one for a glove box hero?
Amazon product

Nodge68 · Oct 1, 2020

Alibro said:
I was going to mention a meggar too. Maybe worth asking a local leccy if you can borrow one.

I can borrow a Megga if I need to.

SWalker said:
if you think you would make use of it scopes are getting pretty cheap
Amazon product
that would be the best cheap one but needs a laptop to run
Amazon product
Amazon product
Amazon product
or these are more stand alone but would not use them for absolute measurement - just a look see
or this one for a glove box hero?
Amazon product

I've a couple of scopes (old school analog and hand held digital, so the next stage is to crack out the high sensitivity DMM and maybe the hand help Digi scope too, although I don't think the weather is going to be suitable for such antics this weekend.

I'm thinking it's an injector myself. I need to double check, but I'm thinking an injector is leaking down after shutting off, which would explain the large of amounts white waxy smelling smoke at start up.

potus · Oct 1, 2020

Are there any particular readings you might find useful from my F2, I have an icarsoft i930 I think it is.

Nodge68 · Oct 2, 2020

potus said:
Are there any particular readings you might find useful from my F2, I have an icarsoft i930 I think it is.

Thanks for the offer.
The Icarsoft I930 is very limited with live data on the FL2, mostly because the FL2 doesn't provide much live information. I can't get any crank sensor output graphs or injector timing graphs on my IID.

This lack of output information seems to be down to lack of information from the PTM. There simply isn't any PID output data for my 2007-2010MY - EDC16 ECU for reporting back the injector balance, or actually anything vaguely useful to me, so I'm going to need to get the series diagnostic stuff out.

Nodge68 · Oct 4, 2020

Yesterday I managed to fit in some testing between the torrential rain.

I've definitely identified No3 as not firing until the engine has started to warm up (I had identified this previously). However No3 now has the injector from No2 in it, No3 injector is in No2 cylinder, however the problem remains with No3 cylinder. Obviously if it were the injector, then the fault would have moved with the injector, but it didn't.

I unplugged each injector in turn (unplugging while the engine was of), then started the engine, each time the EDC16 ECU fitted to my vehicle flagged a code related to open circuit on the injector that was unplugged, so this effectively checked the wiring.

So this leaves one of 3 possible causes I think.

1. There's low compression in that cylinder (through a sticking valve), although it cranks over evenly, suggesting all cylinders have equal compression.

2. The new and tested glow plug isn't working, and that cylinder only starts to fire, once there's a bit of warmth in the block.

3 The EDC16 ECU is faulty, not firing No3 injector, until it's warmed up, maybe through a dry solder joint?

Your thoughts please.

Alibro · Oct 4, 2020

I'm going to spout some rubbish in the vain hope something might be helpful.
We are assuming the common rail has high pressure diesel available at the injector so:

If the injector was opening diesel would enter the cylinder
If still not firing you have a compression problem cause it's not cold enough yet for a glow plug to matter. -- Probably

So is the injector opening to let fuel in? How to test that the injector is getting the pulse from the loom?
Can you swap wires with another injector or would that cause other issues? Probably

What would happen if you unplugged the connector from an injector and plugged it into one of your spare injectors? Would you be able to hear it rattle or see something happening?
It might help to confirm if the fault is electrical or not.

Rank Amatuer · Oct 4, 2020

Point 2 above.
The glow plugs on my FL2 have been duff for years and I've never had any problems starting the vehicle. I always assumed it had to be below a minimum temperature before the glowplugs were energised.

andyfreelandy · Oct 4, 2020

Nodge68 said:
I unplugged each injector in turn, then started the engine, each time the EDC16 ECU fitted to my vehicle flagged a code, so this effectively checked the wiring.

Unless I misread, you weren't getting a code from the misfiring injector originally?? Is that a change?
I can't think of a better idea than checking pulses to all injectors, or at least the misfiring one and one other and comparing signals when cold.

I think you have checked compression already. I did wonder about glow plugs, could swap a couple around I suppose as not sure how this engine would react to a duff plug. Maybe it is so clever it would not fire the injector on that cylinder??

Nodge68 · Oct 4, 2020

andyfreelandy said:
Unless I misread, you weren't getting a code from the misfiring injector originally?? Is that a change?

I'm not 100% sure about the code logging thing Andy. The problem is that once it's warmed up, all codes flag, so I'm thinking I could have missed it last time, or mistakenly read a cold logged code as a warm one. I wanted to be sure from last time, which was the reason I did it again from cold this weekend.

andyfreelandy said:
I can't think of a better idea than checking pulses to all injectors, or at least the misfiring one and one other and comparing signals when cold.

When the weather is better, I'll get the scope on it, to see if I can get an injector pulse when cold.

andyfreelandy said:
I think you have checked compression already. I did wonder about glow plugs, could swap a couple around I suppose as not sure how this engine would react to a duff plug.

Unfortunately this engine uses M8 glow plugs, so I can't fit a compression tester to the plug hole. Also the inlet manifold actually covers the glow plugs, so the manifold needs removing to access them.
I know what an engine with low compression in one cylinder sounds like when cranking, and this engine sounds to have even compression on all cylinders.

I don't know how it would react to a duff plug, but it started with 4 duff plugs and a dead cylinder when I drove it home, so I assumed it should start without plugs, from what I've read, many owners don't know they have a duff plug, until they test them.

I would have thought the PTM would flag a failed plug, but it didn't show it had 4 dead plugs when I read the codes the day I got it home.

andyfreelandy said:
Maybe it is so clever it would not fire the injector on that cylinder??

I'm not sure it's that clever.

paul99 · Oct 4, 2020

The glow plugs generally wire to a common power rail, so even though an ECU could tell there was a fault from the overall resistance/current drawn, it would have no way to tell which particular plug or plugs had a fault. Personally, I would try giving the control unit for the injectors a warm-up with a hot air gun, or a cool-down with freezer spray, or even both. That is, if you can get near the module...

dfossil · Oct 4, 2020

Can you connect up a spare injector to the pipes and see how it fires the spray pattern (like you can on an FL1) - you could compare how it behaves in different positions - might help to eliminate mechanical problems.

Nodge68 · Oct 4, 2020

paul99 said:
The glow plugs generally wire to a common power rail, so even though an ECU could tell there was a fault from the overall resistance/current drawn, it would have no way to tell which particular plug or plugs had a fault.

That's correct. The glow plugs are connected to a common connection, which is powered by a single fuse and relay. It looks like the EDC/PTM doesn't even monitor the glow plugs, which is unusual for a modern diesel.

dfossil said:
Can you connect up a spare injector to the pipes and see how it fires the spray pattern (like you can on an FL1) - you could compare how it behaves in different positions - might help to eliminate mechanical problems.

There's no way to contact them like that, as the system design prevents the injectors being connected in any configuration, other than being fitted into the correct positions in the engine.

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