andyfreelandy · Jul 28, 2020

Useful progress, shame it isn't simple fix.
Did you get any fault codes?
Do you know why it started OK from the garage and not when you got it home, is this a separate issue?

Nodge68 · Jul 28, 2020

andyfreelandy said:
Useful progress, shame it isn't simple fix.

It is, but I know I've a definite problem, rather than guessing.

andyfreelandy said:
Did you get any fault codes?

I did a code read at the garage, before driving it home. It just said things like the MAF, Rail pressure and MAP sensor was incorrect. My guess is someone was pulling plugs, trying to find the fault. I don't know if the garage were being dishonest, or just didn't know what was wrong with at and assumed it to be injectors.
Someone has been there before me, as there are "witness" marks on many bolts, and some are missing or of the incorrect type.

andyfreelandy said:
Do you know why it started OK from the garage and not when you got it home, is this a separate issue?

It will start on EasyStart, after lots of cranking, and once hot will run amazingly well considering most of No1's compression is blowing back to the intake manifold. It was already running and ready for me when I got to the garage, presumably because it's a bugger to start from cold.

I suspected it was more than the injectors when I heard it running at the garage. This was before I handed over the cash, but decided to take a chance, as the rest of the car is so well looked after.

I've just printed out 100 pages from the service manual, which details the job I need to do on it.
Fingers crossed it goes ok.

Arctic2 · Jul 28, 2020

Hi John.
Good & bad news then, at least you now know what you are getting into, and can go forward good luck and do please keep us up to date, cheers Arctic.

Nodge68 · Jul 29, 2020

Arctic2 said:
Hi John.
Good & bad news then, at least you now know what you are getting into, and can go forward good luck and do please keep us up to date, cheers Arctic.

Thanks Arctic2.

I've not worked on the DW12 engine, but it doesn't look very complicated if I'm honest. I will need a lot of parts, so I'll have to do the work, as and when those parts arrive.

I'll take lots of pictures as I go, for reference and maybe they'll be helpful to someone else too.

One thing I don't understand is why the lower (I'll call it the power port) valve is leaking? My thinking would assume the if a swirl flap had failed then the upper swirl port would have the bent valve.

It's very odd.

My other theory is that whoever did the timing belt last July didn't do the job correctly, and perhaps rotated the cam pulley, bending the valves against the piston.

I'll know more when it apart.

Alibro · Jul 29, 2020

Nodge68 said:
Thanks Arctic2.

I've not worked on the DW12 engine, but it doesn't look very complicated if I'm honest. I will need a lot of parts, so I'll have to do the work, as and when those parts arrive.

I'll take lots of pictures as I go, for reference and maybe they'll be helpful to someone else too.

One thing I don't understand is why the lower (I'll call it the power port) valve is leaking? My thinking would assume the if a swirl flap had failed then the upper swirl port would have the bent valve.

It's very odd.

My other theory is that whoever did the timing belt last July didn't do the job correctly, and perhaps rotated the cam pulley, bending the valves against the piston.

I'll know more when it apart.

Is there any point in looking for a replacement engine from a scrapper?

Pro's, Easier, quicker and potentially cheaper
Con's, Unknown quantity, could be perfect but could be knackered.

You pays yer money.........

If you go down the repair route will you replace the clutch at the same time?

Nodge68 · Jul 29, 2020

Alibro said:
Is there any point in looking for a replacement engine from a scrapper?

A FL2 engine costs upwards of £1200, so replacing it isn't a viable proposition.

Alibro said:
Pro's, Easier, quicker and potentially cheaper
Con's, Unknown quantity, could be perfect but could be knackered.

You pays yer money.........

If you go down the repair route will you replace the clutch at the same time?

I always believed its cheaper to repair the engine already in car, rather than replace it for an unknown engine, especially considering the amount of work needed to replace the engine in a FL2.

I'm going to press forward with rebuilding the cylinder head, which shouldn't be that difficult, or that expensive to do. I'm hoping to keep under a budget of £250 to do the job, which will include a new timing belt, all filters and fresh oil.

Alibro · Jul 30, 2020

Nodge68 said:
A FL2 engine costs upwards of £1200, so replacing it isn't a viable proposition.

I always believed its cheaper to repair the engine already in car, rather than replace it for an unknown engine, especially considering the amount of work needed to replace the engine in a FL2.

I'm going to press forward with rebuilding the cylinder head, which shouldn't be that difficult, or that expensive to do. I'm hoping to keep under a budget of £250 to do the job, which will include a new timing belt, all filters and fresh oil.

If you can do all that and replace the head gasket for £250 you'll be doing very well. Especially since we all know you won't cheap out on the parts.
This could be a great car for very small money.

Nodge68 · Jul 30, 2020

Alibro said:
If you can do all that and replace the head gasket for £250 you'll be doing very well. Especially since we all know you won't cheap out on the parts.

Parts are ordered. All OE of course. It helps that it's a Ford/PSA engine, as that keeps the prices down. Using LR branded parts triples the price

, so I'm using Ford/PSA OE parts, which are of course the same as those in LR boxes.

Nodge68 · Jul 31, 2020

The stripping down has continued today. I actually couldn't rotate the crankshaft with a spanner, at least not without forcing it, so it seems a piston it contacting a valve. So I can't set the crankshaft to TDC for the locking pin to be inserted.

The timing belt is now off, which was new, along with a new water pump, idler pulley and tensioner. So I only need a replacement belt kit, which makes the job a few £ cheaper.

Next job is to remove the cylinder head, which could be tomorrow, if the weather is dry.

potus · Aug 1, 2020

Sounds an interesting little repair project, any pics planned?

Alibro · Aug 1, 2020

potus said:
Sounds an interesting little repair project, any pics planned?

Yes, a 'How To' would be great. Even just replacing a timing belt is a big thing for most of us.

Arctic2 · Aug 1, 2020

Nodge68 said:
The stripping down has continued today. I actually couldn't rotate the crankshaft with a spanner, at least not without forcing it, so it seems a piston it contacting a valve. So I can't set the crankshaft to TDC for the locking pin to be inserted.

The timing belt is now off, which was new, along with a new water pump, idler pulley and tensioner. So I only need a replacement belt kit, which makes the job a few £ cheaper.

Next job is to remove the cylinder head, which could be tomorrow, if the weather is dry.

HI John.
More progress every day

are you going for a gates belt kit, that is what i used but i needed the full kit water pump, idler pulley and tensioner, belt, and auxiliary belt.

1

The belts i took off looked new as did the water pump etc, but as i was not sure when it had been done i changed them all.

2

3

Lots of parts to remove to do the belts as you may have now discovered, how are the manifold flaps looking are you going to remove them ? if so are you removing the rod completely ?

Nodge68 · Aug 1, 2020

Arctic2 said:
More progress every day

Indeed there is. I did more today too. I'm doing the work in small steps, so I don't get fed up with the job, and I'm in no rush.

Arctic2 said:
are you going for a gates belt kit, that is what i used but i needed the full kit water pump, idler pulley and tensioner, belt, and auxiliary belt.

The belt I just removed was new, as was everything else, all of which was Dayco.
I'm not going to replace the water pump again, but will put on a new Gate's belt pulleys kit.

Arctic2 said:
Lots of parts to remove to do the belts as you may have now discovered,

The belts aren't too bad, no more difficult that most other cars, except for removing the starter.

Arctic2 said:
how are the manifold flaps looking are you going to remove them

The flaps look ok, dirty but ok. Yes I'll be removing them, just as a precautionary measure.

Arctic2 said:
if so are you removing the rod completely

I don't know yet. If I can seal the rod bore, then I might just remove everything, otherwise I'll just break the flaps out the rod.

Nodge68 · Aug 1, 2020

Got a lot more done today.

Everything is off the head, ready for removing it. The only stumbling block is the lack of the E12 socket. I did have a set, but I can't find it.

So I've ordered one, but that won't be here for a couple of days.

Hopefully I'll get the head off by the middle of next week.

Then I'll be able to see what's up with it. From a casual glance at the top of the head, with the cam top cover removed, I can't see anything amiss.

I've arrowed the valve that is leaking under compression.

However it does look like someone has been there before, as the head looks like it's been reconditioned.

It also has 4 replacement or refurbished injectors fitted, as all are spotlessly clean.

I wrote the cylinder number I removed each injector from on the body, then discovered that, all the injectors have had the numbers 1,2,3,4 stamped in the top, just under the fuel connection. However the injectors were fitted in the wrong sequence, with the one stamped 1 fitted in No4 cylinder, the injector stamped 2 was fitted in cylinder No3, the injector stamped 3 was fitted in cylinder No2 and the injector stamped 4 was fitted in cylinder No1.

So the question is I guess, were the new injectors coded to the ECU, and if so, where they coded out of sequence?

andyfreelandy · Aug 1, 2020

Could this cause the problem?? Just thinking and wondering if some incorrect injector operating sequence could make it look like a valve is hissing and failed when it is actually correctly open and the injector is injecting fuel at the wrong time??

Just worth a few minutes thinking before doing more and while you wait for the torx bit!!!

Denboy · Aug 1, 2020

What a great write up better than a crime mystery thanks

Arctic2 · Aug 1, 2020

Hi John.
Since you were sorting out your engine, i decided to take a look at a spare manifold i had, with reference to the flaps question above, it seems that one flap had broken off on the manifold i have, so i was thinking is it only one that breaks when the flaps give out ?

1
First three flaps are plain to see.

2

3

4

5

The last one 4th is missing

6

The flap rod is connected to the diaphragm with a ball and ring socket.

7

Pop the ring off the ball

8

Pry up the metal clip holding the rod into the manifold.

9

10

keep this safe.

11

The rod joining and holding the flaps in place, can now be slide outwards.

12

13

The rod is a square brass metal type.

14

15

With the rod removed the flaps just pop out of the manifold easy, there is quite a lot of carbon gunk build up on them so no wonder they get damaged if they are hard to move, also being plastic.

16

You can see from this photo the end flap is missing so must have broken off on the FL2 this came from.

17

18.

You can see the flaps get damaged on the ends due to plastic on metal, and start to wear/split on the edges.

19

20

I am in the process of cleaning this out which i hopefully will finish tomorrow, i think the rod can be replaced with out the flaps, fully or just the the first part of the rod if cut down ?

Nodge68 · Aug 1, 2020

andyfreelandy said:
Could this cause the problem??

No, I have an inlet valve leaking, which isn't down to the injectors.

andyfreelandy said:
Just thinking and wondering if some incorrect injector operating sequence could make it look like a valve is hissing and failed when it is actually correctly open and the injector is injecting fuel at the wrong time??

No. It doesn't work like that. The injector coding is simply to tell the ECU the flow characteristics of the injectors installed. The amount of fuel injected in each injection cycle is so tiny, that production tolerances of individual injectors make a difference to the emissions, so every injector is allocated a flow characteristic code, which needs programming into the ECU.

Arctic2 said:
You can see from this photo the end flap is missing so must have broken off on the FL2 this came from

Thanks for posting this Arctic. I'll do this to my inlet manifold tomorrow, as I can't remove the head without my E Torx bits.

andyfreelandy · Aug 1, 2020

Nodge68 said:
No. It doesn't work like that.

Thanks for the info, considered it worth a thought !!

Nodge68 · Aug 1, 2020

andyfreelandy said:
Thanks for the info, considered it worth a thought !!

No worries Andy.

I'm rather anxious to get the head off, to find out what has happened to it. In light of its recent timing belt, and refurbished/ new injectors, I'm thinking that it had this issue which someone was trying to fix. I'm pretty sure the inlet manifold is a second hand replacement, and it looks like the head has bee reconditioned recently. Maybe the reconditioned head has had an issue, maybe with a hydraulic tappet?
It's purely guessing at the moment, at least until I can get it apart to take a look.

Arctic2 said:
i think the rod can be replaced with out the flaps, fully or just the the first part of the rod if cut down ?

I've just done mine left the rod out completely. So all the flaps are gone, and the rod is gone too.
I simply put the lever back in and refitted the clip.
This will keep the manifold air tight, but look original in the process. I've also left the vacuum motor disconnected at the moment, but it wouldn't make any difference if it was left disconnected or connected to the lever.
It's such a quick and easy fix, for what can cause serious damage to the engine.

I just need to fix said engine now.

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