Erdapfel

Erdapfel

Member
Hi all,

Long-time lurker and sporadic poster here. (Yes, I have looked extensively through the threads about wheels and tyres, maintenance, mods etc and have already willingly followed this advice.)

As we know, the Freebie's off-road capability is always couched in terms of 'surprising' and 'almost keeps up with...'. So, I would like to know: what is the absolute most that can be done to a Freelander to improve its ability on green lanes? (Not including Disco-chassis transplants and D-lander type conversions, which are awesome but kind of miss the point and are above my pay-grade, mechanically speaking).

Case study: my 2005 Td4 (manual) has a MuddyMods 40mm lift and 28.5" Yokohama Geolander ATs. So far it has conquered some quite impressive terrain, helped in no small part by its excellent TC system. However, as expected, it feels that I have already reached the 'ceiling' for what can be done to improve it. The Yokos have got stuck in semi-thick mud and on smooth rock before, and the exhaust system and rear subframe regularly ground out in not-especially-deep ruts. (I have replaced the back box with a smaller MuddyMods item, which helps tremendously, but the centre pipe is definitely far too low.) Finally, the lack of low-range and axle-lockers (I understand the VCU imitates a conventional centre lock) have led to my getting stuck in some frustratingly simple places, and I often need to take a run-up to climb rock steps and similar. Famously, the Freelander needs to carry momentum to conquer many obstacles, but I am aware that this can damage both car and lane. Of late, I've noticed the car pulls, bogs down, slips, and then needs either another attempt or a bigger run-up.

So my quandary is this: is there anything significant I can do to address these shortcomings? My options seem to be: fit some offset 16x7 modular wheels with some bigger, quality MT tyres; replace my 40mm rear lift for the brand-new 60mm from MM (the 50mm front looks like it'll cause more problems than solve, for 10mm of clearance); and replace the exhaust centre pipe and hangers. All of this might buy an inch or two extra clearance, some more traction, but of course no more articulation. (Is more traction from tyres actually a disadvantage for the TC system?) Would a remap/EGR delete help with getting up the rough stuff? (Yes, I know that both of these are contestable mods.) Is anyone aware of any aftermarket/universal transfer boxes/lockers that could be retrofitted to a FL (bearing in mind how the IRD is different to a regular centre diff)? And, finally, is there anything more involved that could be done to it, such as changing running gear to allow fitting of bigger struts?

I can't help but look at ready-modded Disco 2s for sale and think that, with the money I would have to invest in make the FL just slightly more capable, I could just get a D2 and be done with it. I just happen to love the size, body shape and almost Jeep-esque vibe of the FL, and of course the better MPG! I am really quite attached to mine and am also aware that I will lose money if I try to sell it as it now bears a fair few scratches from laning (and has a diesel heater installed under the seat). Equally, though I have already invested a bit in mods, I have not had to fork out yet for VCU/IRD issues (touch wood!) so the car doesn't owe me too much in that respect.

TL;DR: can I mod my beloved Freelander further to make it a better green-laning toy, do I accept its limitations and just enjoy it for what it is, or do I need to bite the bullet and get a Disco 2 or similar?

Apologies for the long-winded post!

Tim
 
Traction wise, a rear locking diff will improve things.
The VCU is up to the task, you just need to give it more beens to transfer more torque, which a rear locking diff can then use.

Height wise, contact Warren at Muddy Mods, he knows what combination of stuff will give the best ground clearance. ;)
 
Last edited:
Thanks Nodge! I didn't know you could get rear locking diffs for them.

I've seen the VCU seemingly do the impossible when I've been giving it the beans. I've been really impressed. Would increasing engine torque by any means (remap, RonBox etc) help with this, do you think?

What do you mean by 'still'? I hadn't thought of reaching out to him (already bought a fair few parts from him!) to ask about this.

Thanks again! (Having lurked on here for several years without being a member your posts have always been really informative and I've seen your name pop up very often!)
 
Erdapfel said:
I didn't know you could get rear locking diffs for them.
Click to expand...

You can Quaife make or made a torque biasing rear diff for the FL1.

Erdapfel said:
I've seen the VCU seemingly do the impossible when I've been giving it the beans. I've been really impressed. Would increasing engine torque by any means (remap, RonBox etc) help with this, do you think?
Click to expand...

The VCU isn't the issue, as it is capable for transferring more torque than the available grip of the tyres.

Increasing engine torque will help, if you've found a lack of torque available.

Erdapfel said:
What do you mean by 'still'? I hadn't thought of reaching out to him (already bought a fair few parts from him!) to ask about this.
Click to expand...
Was a typo. I've corrected what I meant to say. ;)
But definitely speak to him, he's created some amazing FL1s.
;)
 
Thanks for this. I’ve been reading through all the threads that reference the ATB (and the claims on the Quaife website) but I’m struggling to find anyone who’s actually tried it out in a Freelander firsthand. I’m wondering how much extra benefit there is over just the TC.

I understand that the TC brakes a slipping wheel to divert power to the one with more traction; but isn’t this what the diff would do? Is the diff more progressive or quicker in how it does this? Also, am I right in thinking that if the car is cross-axles/lifts a rear wheel then the TC will fill in for the diff and drive the wheel still on the ground?

In short, does the diff make much of a difference, to your knowledge?
 
Full ali sumpguard and tubular rear exhaust guard let you dance around the apprach/departure angle ussies by skidding over that which you cannot naturally clear. Muddy mods to a winch which would enable you to pull yourself out of areas the hippo bogs down on. KL71 mud tyres will find grip where all terrains will clog up. But you are looking at incremental rather than revolutionalry upgrades here.
 
Erdapfel said:
Thanks for this. I’ve been reading through all the threads that reference the ATB (and the claims on the Quaife website) but I’m struggling to find anyone who’s actually tried it out in a Freelander firsthand. I’m wondering how much extra benefit there is over just the TC.

I understand that the TC brakes a slipping wheel to divert power to the one with more traction; but isn’t this what the diff would do? Is the diff more progressive or quicker in how it does this? Also, am I right in thinking that if the car is cross-axles/lifts a rear wheel then the TC will fill in for the diff and drive the wheel still on the ground?

In short, does the diff make much of a difference, to your knowledge?
Click to expand...

An ATB diff isn't anything like TC, but it's action is enhanced by TC.

TC has only a minimal effect on the FL1, as it's unable to stop the spinning wheel completely, just attempting to slow the spin. This means that only a fraction of the torque lost to the spinning wheel is sent to the opposite wheel, a majority is simply dissipated in drive line slop.

The quaife ATB will actually transfer the power, from the spinning wheel to the wheel with most grip.
It's a clever diff design, which is enhanced by the TC system, as any load on the spinning wheel is multiplied by the diff and sent to the wheel with most grip.
 
There was a member on here a few years ago who did serious work to his fab L series. iirc he fitted that Quaife diff to his. Have a gander through his posts.
 
htr said:
There was a member on here a few years ago who did serious work to his fab L series. iirc he fitted that Quaife diff to his. Have a gander through his posts.
Click to expand...

Nodge68 said:
The quaife ATB will actually transfer the power, from the spinning wheel to the wheel with most grip.
It's a clever diff design, which is enhanced by the TC system, as any load on the spinning wheel is multiplied by the diff and sent to the wheel with most grip.
Click to expand...

Just had a look through Winu's posts and seen what he did with his diff. I'm sold on the idea, but it looks like it would require rebuilding the LR diff with new seals, bearings, pinion gears etc and I worry that this could become a money pit/one of those 'just one more thing' projects that never quite gets finished, while I've got a diffless Landy on the drive (suppose I could go 2WD while I'm working on it...).

Jayridium said:
KL71 mud tyres
Click to expand...

To be honest I've been eyeing up some 16" MTs on modulars (I only put my ATs on my standard 17s in August and they've plenty of life left) as most of the times I've got stuck it's been due to lack of traction. Buy cheap (or, at least, not quite what you really wanted because it was cheaper), buy twice!

Jayridium said:
But you are looking at incremental rather than revolutionalry upgrades here.
Click to expand...

This is precisely the point. All in, with winch, MTs on modulars and the LSD I'm looking at spending £3000+. I could get a (tatty) D2 for that with some mods already on, but with a much higher capability ceiling and being able to lug more stuff, camp in more comfort (I have made a removable camper 'box' bed thing for the FL but it is limited in terms of space) and carry more people. But then it would cost loads more to run, rust more, and wouldn't have the freak/cool factor of a softback and removable roof panels. Yes, I've trawled through all of the 'Freelander vs...' threads and I'm still on the fence. Maybe the key question is 'what would be more fun'?

What LR need to do is release a FL3 with the running gear of the new Defender 90 but can go roofless etc like a Jeep/new Ford Bronco, do 60MPG, and cost less than 20k... Yeah, I'll dream on.
 
Erdapfel said:
Just had a look through Winu's posts and seen what he did with his diff. I'm sold on the idea, but it looks like it would require rebuilding the LR diff with new seals, bearings, pinion gears etc and I worry that this could become a money pit/one of those 'just one more thing' projects that never quite gets finished, while I've got a diffless Landy on the drive (suppose I could go 2WD while I'm working on it...).



To be honest I've been eyeing up some 16" MTs on modulars (I only put my ATs on my standard 17s in August and they've plenty of life left) as most of the times I've got stuck it's been due to lack of traction. Buy cheap (or, at least, not quite what you really wanted because it was cheaper), buy twice!



This is precisely the point. All in, with winch, MTs on modulars and the LSD I'm looking at spending £3000+. I could get a (tatty) D2 for that with some mods already on, but with a much higher capability ceiling and being able to lug more stuff, camp in more comfort (I have made a removable camper 'box' bed thing for the FL but it is limited in terms of space) and carry more people. But then it would cost loads more to run, rust more, and wouldn't have the freak/cool factor of a softback and removable roof panels. Yes, I've trawled through all of the 'Freelander vs...' threads and I'm still on the fence. Maybe the key question is 'what would be more fun'?

What LR need to do is release a FL3 with the running gear of the new Defender 90 but can go roofless etc like a Jeep/new Ford Bronco, do 60MPG, and cost less than 20k... Yeah, I'll dream on.
Click to expand...
Only when they are nearly broke will they come to their senses and release another Freelander to save their fortunes.
 
Erdapfel said:
I could get a (tatty) D2 for that with some mods already on, but with a much higher capability ceiling and being able to lug more stuff, camp in more comfort (I have made a removable camper 'box' bed thing for the FL but it is limited in terms of space) and carry more people.
Click to expand...

But a well sorted FL1 will do pretty much everything a D2 will do, especially if the D2 doesn't have a locking centre diff.
 
Nodge68 said:
But a well sorted FL1 will do pretty much everything a D2 will do, especially if the D2 doesn't have a locking centre diff.
Click to expand...

That's what I needed to hear! I've e-mailed Warren at MM for his advice and hopefully in time I'll get closer to making my FL a 'sorted' one ;) Thanks again for the input, Nodge!

kernowsvenski said:
The baby defender is overdue. I'm hopeful.....;)
Click to expand...
GrumpyGel said:
Only when they are nearly broke will they come to their senses and release another Freelander to save their fortunes.
Click to expand...

I know they've been touting it for a few years now but no sign yet. It's a shame because in my opinion there's an obvious gap in the market between Jimny/90-sized vehicles (appreciate that they're considerably different in size, but similar in layout perhaps) and larger 'trucks' that the Freelander falls perfectly in to. That, and, like all manufacturers, JLR are targeting their sales at the 'premium' market, not the lifestyle or utilitarian markets. In short, people want flash and not fun. It would be nice to have a fun, slightly freaky new Landy for the younger market, but I don't think we'll ever get one.
 
Doesn’t this tempt you?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394081250965?hash=item5bc112ae95:g:6UIAAOSwFKxiJaxw

Maybe the three letters in the number plate sum up my thoughts on it.

Sadly I think the idea of fun small Land Rovers is something of the distant past. I test drove a new Defender 90 a while back. The Freelander 1 actually has much more room inside, and is more practical. Yes, it is a thing of comfort, and very capable. But you could argue it is an expensive successor to the FL. The body is monocoque, welded and held together with glue. Something tratter drivers laughed about the FL being since day one.

There are come convertible new Defender concepts out there, but they look like something Katie Price would own. There is also talk of a slightly smaller, lower cost new Defender-ish vehicle. But who knows.
 
4Bee4Bee said:
Doesn’t this tempt you?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394081250965?hash=item5bc112ae95:g:6UIAAOSwFKxiJaxw

Maybe the three letters in the number plate sum up my thoughts on it.

Sadly I think the idea of fun small Land Rovers is something of the distant past. I test drove a new Defender 90 a while back. The Freelander 1 actually has much more room inside, and is more practical. Yes, it is a thing of comfort, and very capable. But you could argue it is an expensive successor to the FL. The body is monocoque, welded and held together with glue. Something tratter drivers laughed about the FL being since day one.

There are come convertible new Defender concepts out there, but they look like something Katie Price would own. There is also talk of a slightly smaller, lower cost new Defender-ish vehicle. But who knows.
Click to expand...

Ha! I have seen this. I'm not interested in specialist 'toy' cars (be it track, off-road etc) as I like to use them actually as cars as well. I bet it is fun, though.

I agree that the Freelander is a really useful compromise between capacity and overall size. A Disco or 110 looks so much bigger but the FL can still carry five in comfort and a reasonable amount of kit. With the hardback off or the rear window down the three-door becomes a mini-pickup of sorts, which is very useful.

The baby Defender has been on the cards for a few years now and I'm yet to see more than speculation. It seems that Land Rover are missing a trick by not having a cheaper car targeted at younger (read: 20s/30s) drivers and instead just push for everything to be as flash as possible. For example, around my way the Range Rover has such a negative reputation that really it doesn't warrant as I am sure it is an excellent car – they're all just blacked out, with tinted windows and a BO55 private plate. It's all a bit silly.

Nodge68 said:
An ATB diff isn't anything like TC, but it's action is enhanced by TC.
Click to expand...

I've been down the rabbit-hole of the ATB again. Nodge, would you recommend buying a second diff and rebuilding it with the Quiafe and then fitting the whole unit? If so, assuming the donor diff is in good nick, would I be able to get away with reusing the seals, pinion etc? I've read varying reports of how difficult the job is to do but if I can I'd like to do it myself. (I understand that I would also need to set the backlash and preload – I might be able to get some help with that...)
 
Erdapfel said:
I've been down the rabbit-hole of the ATB again. Nodge, would you recommend buying a second diff and rebuilding it with the Quiafe and then fitting the whole unit? If so, assuming the donor diff is in good nick, would I be able to get away with reusing the seals, pinion etc? I've read varying reports of how difficult the job is to do but if I can I'd like to do it myself. (I understand that I would also need to set the backlash and preload
Click to expand...

The pinion seal is easy to change. You just make sure to torque the nut up to the same setting that it was when it was removed.
This way it doesn't compress the crush tube more than it was, which keeps the pinion bearings at the same preload.
It's a couple of hours work to rebuild a FL1 rear diff, without touching the pinion preload at all.
 
@Erdapfel Just FYI, the freelander 1 actually has a longer wheelbase than a Discovery 1/2. F1 is 102" vs D1/D2 @100"
Land-Rover-Discovery-1996.gif


Freelander1spec2001-12.jpg

@Nodge68 What is the correct torque?
 
Erdapfel said:
Hi all,

Long-time lurker and sporadic poster here. (Yes, I have looked extensively through the threads about wheels and tyres, maintenance, mods etc and have already willingly followed this advice.)

As we know, the Freebie's off-road capability is always couched in terms of 'surprising' and 'almost keeps up with...'. So, I would like to know: what is the absolute most that can be done to a Freelander to improve its ability on green lanes? (Not including Disco-chassis transplants and D-lander type conversions, which are awesome but kind of miss the point and are above my pay-grade, mechanically speaking).

Case study: my 2005 Td4 (manual) has a MuddyMods 40mm lift and 28.5" Yokohama Geolander ATs. So far it has conquered some quite impressive terrain, helped in no small part by its excellent TC system. However, as expected, it feels that I have already reached the 'ceiling' for what can be done to improve it. The Yokos have got stuck in semi-thick mud and on smooth rock before, and the exhaust system and rear subframe regularly ground out in not-especially-deep ruts. (I have replaced the back box with a smaller MuddyMods item, which helps tremendously, but the centre pipe is definitely far too low.) Finally, the lack of low-range and axle-lockers (I understand the VCU imitates a conventional centre lock) have led to my getting stuck in some frustratingly simple places, and I often need to take a run-up to climb rock steps and similar. Famously, the Freelander needs to carry momentum to conquer many obstacles, but I am aware that this can damage both car and lane. Of late, I've noticed the car pulls, bogs down, slips, and then needs either another attempt or a bigger run-up.

So my quandary is this: is there anything significant I can do to address these shortcomings? My options seem to be: fit some offset 16x7 modular wheels with some bigger, quality MT tyres; replace my 40mm rear lift for the brand-new 60mm from MM (the 50mm front looks like it'll cause more problems than solve, for 10mm of clearance); and replace the exhaust centre pipe and hangers. All of this might buy an inch or two extra clearance, some more traction, but of course no more articulation. (Is more traction from tyres actually a disadvantage for the TC system?) Would a remap/EGR delete help with getting up the rough stuff? (Yes, I know that both of these are contestable mods.) Is anyone aware of any aftermarket/universal transfer boxes/lockers that could be retrofitted to a FL (bearing in mind how the IRD is different to a regular centre diff)? And, finally, is there anything more involved that could be done to it, such as changing running gear to allow fitting of bigger struts?

I can't help but look at ready-modded Disco 2s for sale and think that, with the money I would have to invest in make the FL just slightly more capable, I could just get a D2 and be done with it. I just happen to love the size, body shape and almost Jeep-esque vibe of the FL, and of course the better MPG! I am really quite attached to mine and am also aware that I will lose money if I try to sell it as it now bears a fair few scratches from laning (and has a diesel heater installed under the seat). Equally, though I have already invested a bit in mods, I have not had to fork out yet for VCU/IRD issues (touch wood!) so the car doesn't owe me too much in that respect.

TL;DR: can I mod my beloved Freelander further to make it a better green-laning toy, do I accept its limitations and just enjoy it for what it is, or do I need to bite the bullet and get a Disco 2 or similar?

Apologies for the long-winded post!

Tim
Click to expand...
You won't overcome the design deficits of the Freelander:

-lack of low range
-low ground clearance
-poor approach/breakover/departure angels

They are good vehicles, but there are better ones for pure off roading.
 
Erdapfel said:
Thanks for this. I’ve been reading through all the threads that reference the ATB (and the claims on the Quaife website) but I’m struggling to find anyone who’s actually tried it out in a Freelander firsthand. I’m wondering how much extra benefit there is over just the TC.

I understand that the TC brakes a slipping wheel to divert power to the one with more traction; but isn’t this what the diff would do? Is the diff more progressive or quicker in how it does this? Also, am I right in thinking that if the car is cross-axles/lifts a rear wheel then the TC will fill in for the diff and drive the wheel still on the ground?

In short, does the diff make much of a difference, to your knowledge?
Click to expand...
Can you get a drop in ATB for an FL1?

Personally I'd suspect it isn't worth the money given the very real limitations of the vehicle. Although an ATB is a very good thing.

Do a Google/Youtube on how diffs work. A standard diff is open and will send power to the path of least resistance. the TCS will break a spinning wheel to promote rotation on the opposite wheel. Which is handy, but requires a fair few revs to get it working, which the lack of low range hampers even more.

An ATB is a limited slip diff, which allows both wheels to rotate at different speeds unlike a locking diff. But only allows a degree of slip, it will make the TCS more effective. But the lack of low range is still going to be an issue. Even more so if you have a manual Freelander.

If you could get an ATB fitted for a few hundred quid, then so be it. But I suspect you are more likely talking £1000 and values of Freelanders probably mean this makes a lot less sense.
 
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