BTW - I wasnae meaning to challenge you, I was just wondering.

SO... you're saying that the later diff's have bigger bearings? I didn't know that.

If it is a bigger bearing than the earlier diff, and you're building the diff without the stupidly over-torqued preload, you are of course right that the OE bearing will be fine.
 
Jayridium said:
BTW - I wasnae meaning to challenge you, I was just wondering
Click to expand...
I never considered you to be challenging me. I figured you were just interested. ;)
Jayridium said:
SO... you're saying that the later diff's have bigger bearings? I didn't know that.
Click to expand...
Yes, the earlier (pre 2010/11) diffs had a smaller input bearing (the one that fails, closest to the Haldex) originally supplied by SKF and was 62mm OD, 30mm ID and 17.25mm wide. A sensible upgrade for this size is the Timken 30206, which has a load rating 25% higher than the OE SKF.
The post 2011 diffs had a larger 62mm OD, 30mm ID and 21.25mm width. SKF was again the OE supplier.

Jayridium said:
If it is a bigger bearing than the earlier diff, and you're building the diff without the stupidly over-torqued preload, you are of course right that the OE bearing will be fine.
Click to expand...

I don't believe it's an issue with the bearings that cause the failure, at least not the bearing loadings from driveline components.
Feeling the pre-load on these for myself, it's pretty obvious as to why they are failing at such low mileages. A bearing should never have a pre-load that is so high that the rolling elements actually cause damage to the cup or cone. This diff pinion can't be turned by hand, which is simply far to tight. I'd expect to feel some drag as the pinion is turned, but not so much it actually won't turn with one hand.
If this replacement diff has done 50k miles with a high pre-load, then the smaller Haldex end bearing won't last much longer.

I believe that the once I've rebuilt it to my own pre-load, then even the OE SKF bearing should have a much better life.

The other issue I believe these diffs suffer is bad lubrication to the bearing that fails. The oil feed to this bearing is pathetic, although looking at how the bearings are failing, its not a just lubrication issue, but a combination of high pre-load and poor lubrication.
 
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From what you've said, I'm inclined to agree with you that the problem is indeed an over tightening during assembly exacerbated by poor lubrication, rather than an inherent flaw in the original diff design, and LR's "upgrade" is an example of "my car's allergic to vanilla ice cream"...
A complaint was received by a high ranking executive of a well known major automobile manufacturer:

“This is the second time I have written you, and I don’t blame you for not answering me, because I kind of sounded crazy, but it is a fact that we have a tradition in our family of ice cream for dessert after dinner each night. But the kind of ice cream varies so every night, after we’ve eaten, the whole family votes on which kind of ice cream we should have and I drive down to the store to get it.

It’s also a fact that I recently purchased one of your new automobiles and since then my trips to the store have created a problem. You see, every time I buy vanilla ice cream, when I start back from the store my car won’t start. If I get any other kind of ice cream, the car starts just fine. I want you to know I’m serious about this question, no matter how silly it sounds: ‘What is there about this car that makes it not start when I get vanilla ice cream, and easy to start whenever I get any other kind?”

The president of this auto manufacturer was understandably skeptical about the letter, but sent an engineer to check it out anyway. The latter was surprised to be greeted by a successful, obviously well-educated man in a fine neighborhood. He had arranged to meet the man just after dinner time, so the two hopped into the car and drove to the ice cream store. It was vanilla ice cream that night and, sure enough, after they came back to the car, it wouldn’t start.

Now the engineer, being a logical man, refused to believe that this man’s car was allergic to vanilla ice cream. He arranged, therefore, to continue his visits for as long as it took to solve the problem. And toward this end he began to take notes: he jotted down all sorts of data, time of day, type of gas used, time to drive back and forth, etc.

In a short time, he had a clue: the man took less time to buy vanilla than any other flavor. Why? The answer was in the layout of the store.

Vanilla, being the most popular flavor, was in a separate case at the front of the store for quick pickup. All the other flavors were kept in the back of the store at a different counter where it took considerably longer to find the flavor and get checked out.

Now the question for the engineer was why the car wouldn’t start when it took less time. Once time became the problem – not the vanilla ice cream – the engineer quickly came up with the answer: vapor lock. It was happening every night, but the extra time taken to get the other flavors allowed the engine to cool down sufficiently to start. When the man got vanilla, the engine was still too hot for the vapor lock to dissipate.

The “moral” of this story is that buying vanilla ice cream and the car failing to start are correlated events however; this story demonstrates that correlation does not mean causation. This often is the case in work environments. This story displays key factors used in the KT Clear Thinking process which save work teams and organizations time and dollars. We hope you enjoyed this demonstration, a logical fallacy, and its resolution.

KT has a powerful toolkit for root cause analysis and preventing future problems
Click to expand...
 
Jayridium said:
From what you've said, I'm inclined to agree with you that the problem is indeed an over tightening during assembly exacerbated by poor lubrication
Click to expand...

A small box of parts arrived today.
20210121_200259.jpg

All OE with the exception of the bearing, which is a Timken.:D
20210121_200215.jpg

Which wasn't what I was expecting, but it's very welcome.
Hopefully the diff will be good for another 100k miles, once I've built it properly. :)
 
Today I had bit of time, after sorting the daughter's Fiat 500 for its MOT on Monday.

So I started taking the replacement diff pinion out.
It's not easy to get the securing nut off, as it was done up seriously tight, probably well over 300 Nm, and there's no real way to hold the diff casing, so I had to get creative, but more about that on a dedicated thread.

I'll be doing a FL2 diff rebuild thread, along with a Gen 4 Haldex service thread. I think it's about time the forum had a few more FL2 maintenance threads.

Anyway for now, I've got the pinion out, as I planned to replace the bearing that fails.

I'm glad I did, as it had a preload higher than I was comfortable with, and looking at the bearing, it hasn't much life left in it.
Notice how hot this being has been running, which I can only put down to the excessive preload, when coupled to the poor lubrication that this diff design seems to suffer.

The pinion as it's assembled into the diff casing.
20210123_142338.jpg

The rolling elements are clearly running hot.
20210123_142344.jpg

The cup is showing signs of wear, but still has its case hardening intact.
20210123_142526.jpg
 
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I'm sure you've seen this but....
Not sure how the vin numbers work and what year the attached applies to.
 

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Nodge68 said:
Today I had bit of time, after sorting the daughter's Fiat 500 for its MOT on Monday.

So I started taking the replacement diff pinion out.
It's not easy to get the securing nut off, as it was done up seriously tight, probably well over 300 Nm, and there's no real way to hold the diff casing, so I had to get creative, but more about that on a dedicated thread.

I'll be doing a FL2 diff rebuild thread, along with a Gen 4 Haldex service thread. I think it's about time the forum had a few more FL2 maintenance threads.

Anyway for now, I've got the pinion out, as I planned to replace the bearing that fails.

I'm glad I did, as it had a preload higher than I was comfortable with, and looking at the bearing, it hasn't much life left in it.
Notice how hot this being has been running, which I can only put down to the excessive preload, when coupled to the poor lubrication that this diff design seems to suffer.

The pinion as it's assembled into the diff casing.
View attachment 228904
The rolling elements are clearly running hot.View attachment 228905
The cup is showing signs of wear, but still has its case hardening intact. View attachment 228906
Click to expand...
This is mental I would love to know the reasoning for giving such a critical component (the bearing) an inadequate oil supply coupled with excessive pre-load ! it has disaster written all over it. Am I right in thinking this is a Ford part, if so is it used in any Ford vehicles ? As it would be interesting to see if there any failures in that department.
 
andyfreelandy said:
I'm sure you've seen this but....
Not sure how the vin numbers work and what year the attached applies to.
Click to expand...
LR admit 'static overload' but don't mention any corrective measures to stop it happening again (apart from replacing the worn parts & by the next time it happens the things will be way out of it's warranty) e.g. not putting excessive load on the bearing that's failing & some way to improve the oil supply. Can this sort of thing be brought to the attention of the Dept. of Transport by individuals or does it have to come from failures/accidents being reported in the press ?
 
Andy Warren said:
LR admit 'static overload' but don't mention any corrective measures to stop it happening again (apart from replacing the worn parts
Click to expand...

Agreed. Further they are prepared for a customer, who may not be able to recognise a potential failure by sound, reporting it BEFORE taking any action at all when a safety critical failure is a potential consequence.

As a group this needs escalating!!
Anyone agree???
 
andyfreelandy said:
Agreed. Further they are prepared for a customer, who may not be able to recognise a potential failure by sound, reporting it BEFORE taking any action at all when a safety critical failure is a potential consequence.

As a group this needs escalating!!
Anyone agree???
Click to expand...
YEP.
 
The problem is VOSA will only get involved if there's a highly safety critical issue, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Yes they do fail, so in under 20k miles, even on the early Evoque which uses the same diff (mine is an Evoque diff), but equally some fail at 100k miles, so there's no definitive answer as to the reason, other than from what I've seen on my own diffs.

Mine did seize up, in a rather spectacular way, but whomever fitted it (I believe it was a recent replacement or repair), didn't actually put any oil in it. Unfortunately LR can't be held accountable for some dumb fitter to screw it up, 10 years after it left the factory. :(
 
Agreed but an overheated bearing with or without oil can seize providing the rear end lock up you experienced surely?

Root cause bearing tight and oilways poorly designed.
 
andyfreelandy said:
Agreed but an overheated bearing with or without oil can seize providing the rear end lock up you experienced surely?
Click to expand...
Yes I guess it can. I did search, but only found one other reference to a rear diff seizing while moving, which was in Italy I think, and happened on a motorway at speed. That must have been frightening, but there wasn't much more information on this event available. Apparently the vehicle didn't make contact with anything as a result of the diff seizing, which was good. Apparently the normal bearing that goes noisy had heat welded itself, and locked the pinion, but I believe the diff was repaired, and the driver was sent on his way.
I don't know the mileage, or if the diff was noisy before it seized, or even if the oil level was correct, which would has helped paint a more complete picture of events leading up to it seizing.
andyfreelandy said:
Root cause bearing tight and oilways poorly designed.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, there's a design and manufacturing fault with this diff, which is maybe why the later Evoque and Discovery Sport use a different design, even though they are just evolutions of the original FL2 design.
 
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