Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Not as noisy as you'd think. Unfortunately I'd not heard how loud a noisy FL2 diff is, but the car wasn't very noisy to my ears. The car was definitely much less noisy than the FL1 it replaced.
Not as noisy as you'd think. Unfortunately I'd not heard how loud a noisy FL2 diff is, but the car wasn't very noisy to my ears. The car was definitely much less noisy than the FL1 it replaced.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I'd been doing 70, just moments before it seized for the first time. But thankfully I wasn't going so fast when it did.
I should have checked the oil level before using the car, but who'd have guessed there'd be absolutely no oil in it.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I've been thinking about this diff failure. I don't think it's the original. Inside I found some characters written on the casing (in one of the photos), which I believe are probably from a diff reconditioner.
The small amount of oil presented, leaves me to believe that it could well have never been filled with oil after it was fitted. The oil in there being what was used in assembly, and some of this has been escaping due to heat.
The pictures show the diff has been getting really hot (understandably), so I'm guessing the pinion bearings have heat welded themselves together.
I'm going to try to get the pinion out when I have time, but due to the damage to the pinion and crown wheel teeth, there seems no point in trying to fix it. I could potentially replace the damaged bearings, but it'll have lots of backlash in the gears and it would be rather noisy too.
I simply don't understand how incompetent the person or persons looking after this vehicle were.
It's possible that the fluid level was checked with the wrong plug (Haldex plug is also in the diff case)?, but surely someone working on it would have checked which plug does what??
It's bloody annoying, that such a potentially nice vehicle, has been maintained by someone completely clueless.
The small amount of oil presented, leaves me to believe that it could well have never been filled with oil after it was fitted. The oil in there being what was used in assembly, and some of this has been escaping due to heat.
The pictures show the diff has been getting really hot (understandably), so I'm guessing the pinion bearings have heat welded themselves together.
I'm going to try to get the pinion out when I have time, but due to the damage to the pinion and crown wheel teeth, there seems no point in trying to fix it. I could potentially replace the damaged bearings, but it'll have lots of backlash in the gears and it would be rather noisy too.
I simply don't understand how incompetent the person or persons looking after this vehicle were.
It's possible that the fluid level was checked with the wrong plug (Haldex plug is also in the diff case)?, but surely someone working on it would have checked which plug does what??
It's bloody annoying, that such a potentially nice vehicle, has been maintained by someone completely clueless.
Arctic2
Well-Known Member
.
Now that is interesting do you know the part number of the Volvo pump please.
Hi John.
I don't know if you have seen this below, i have had a read and cannot see anywhere that says the exchange must be repairable ?
FREELANDER 2 RECONDITIONED DIFF DIFFERENTIAL LR031377 HD TIMKEN BEARINGS | eBay
Whereas this seller states the exchange must be repairable.
LR Freelander 2 - Evoque Rear Differential - Diff - EXPRESS DELIVERY- UK 18750000027 | eBay
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jedi
Well-Known Member
I can't really see from the pics where the damage is on the pinion and crown wheel, but If it were mine i,d replace the bearings, tidy up teeth with a file , stick some top quality extra pressure gear oil in it and see how it goes.. what actually caused the lock up? Is something welded together?
Hi:
Amazon product
Amazon product
While it appears that the large flakes are bearing rather than teeth fragments, I think John is a bit too "by the book" to cobble the diff back together knowing that since the mating faces on the teeth were damaged and dressed down, ergo their hardening would have been compromised, meaning the diff, if simply refurbed with bearings and refilled with oil, could theoretically be a ticking timebomb. Although, were it my vehicle, I'd be inclined to do what Jedi suggested, and drive a bit slower while I investigated the EDC fault, and every month or two I'd take oil samples from the diff to keep an eye on the degradation of the teeth.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
That thought has crossed my mind, and I could still go down that route, even if just to get it on the road, while looking for a replacement. The gear surfaces are pretty worn, with a couple of mm worn from the pinion, the hardening will be gone. There's 0.5 mm or so worn off crown wheel, so there is going to be considerable backlash in the gear mesh.
The surface of the teeth are also very pitted, presumably from lumps of bearing roller being trapped within the gear mesh, causing damage to the gear surfaces.However this would likely polish up in use, so it's something to consider, in the short term anyway.
However I'm reluctant to do a job twice, if I can avoid it. I would replace the weak bearing, if I find a second hand one anyway.
I'm guessing the weak bearing has welded solid, which is going to make removing the pinion almost impossible, as the pinion needs to be rotated to remove the securing nut.
I will however try to get it apart.
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Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I've rebuilt many gearboxes and diffs over the decades, and good mechanical aptitude to know what is serviceable, and what isn't. Technically the crown wheel and pinion will work, but they will be far from satisfactory, and will wear out completely at some point.
The diff case is full of metallic particulates, large and small.
I suspect the space between the two pinion bearings will be packed, as the only way for these particulates to get into the diff housing, is through the inner pinion bearing.
I must admit, it tempting to put it back together with new bearings and see how it goes.
The reduced traction fault came up with front/rear wheel speed plausibility error, and cleared OK. I'm guessing the computers got confused with the speed signals being returned from the wheel sensors.
potus
Well-Known Member
And me, a noisy diff is the only issue
I've been thinking about this diff failure. I don't think it's the original. Inside I found some characters written on the casing (in one of the photos), which I believe are probably from a diff reconditioner.
The small amount of oil presented, leaves me to believe that it could well have never been filled with oil after it was fitted. The oil in there being what was used in assembly, and some of this has been escaping due to heat.
The pictures show the diff has been getting really hot (understandably), so I'm guessing the pinion bearings have heat welded themselves together.
I'm going to try to get the pinion out when I have time, but due to the damage to the pinion and crown wheel teeth, there seems no point in trying to fix it. I could potentially replace the damaged bearings, but it'll have lots of backlash in the gears and it would be rather noisy too.
I simply don't understand how incompetent the person or persons looking after this vehicle were.
It's possible that the fluid level was checked with the wrong plug (Haldex plug is also in the diff case)?, but surely someone working on it would have checked which plug does what??
It's bloody annoying, that such a potentially nice vehicle, has been maintained by someone completely clueless.
Following your thread with interest Nodge, thanks for the detail.
My diff is noisy (has been for the 2 years I've owned it) and have been putting the task of stripping it out, off. Done lots over the years but never stripped a diff.
My F2 was reg'd 30.06.2008 (8H) and has 3rd gen haldex fitted, changed the filter and oil in the haldex although not via the 'correct' procedure.
Have also checked the oil in the diff hoping this was the cause of 'noise' but the level was fine in the diff. Good luck and cheers for the thread, hopefully you get it sorted soon.
I totally agree with you there John The crown wheel and pinion look like they would clean up / dress down and work - for a while... But doing that would indeed be a compromise, and is far from right, or "by the book". But the weighting of the decision making process to whether to go for the compromise repair or not will be subjective, no doubt influenced by our own backgrounds. I don't see you ever having work in a cowboy garage bodging stuff on the cheap, so you'd err on the side of a quality job, maybe main dealers or reputable specialists or quality indy garages? But my background on oil rigs, is a different kettle of fish, if a piece of equipment breaks and puts the drilling operations on hold, first couple, maybe first six hours are "free maintenance", thereafter the rig is on "downtime", effectively off-hired until its fixed, thus the rig's owners are catching a cold for ~£20k per hour while we are shut down. As you can imagine, this context, particularly the mounting pressure from ever increasingly senior levels of management escalating to executives gives rise to a predilection towards implementing "creative", albeit "temporary", solutions.
So whereas in the motortrade you wouldn't want your name on a janky differential hatchet repair job that lasted six months, on oil rigs if the janky repair allowed operations to resume but only lasted for 4+1/2 weeks, allowing while proper bits to be sourced, you'd have done the company a great service. Although tragically, folks at my paygrade wouldn't get you a penny of the 4+1/2 weeks@ £20k per hour you'd have saved the company.
The crown wheel and pinion look like they would clean up / dress down and work - for a while... But doing that would indeed be a compromise, and is far from right, or "by the book". But the weighting of the decision making process to whether to go for the compromise repair or not will be subjective, no doubt influenced by our own backgrounds. I don't see you ever having work in a cowboy garage bodging stuff on the cheap, so you'd err on the side of a quality job, maybe main dealers or reputable specialists or quality indy garages? But my background on oil rigs, is a different kettle of fish, if a piece of equipment breaks and puts the drilling operations on hold, first couple, maybe first six hours are "free maintenance", thereafter the rig is on "downtime", effectively off-hired until its fixed, thus the rig's owners are catching a cold for ~£20k per hour while we are shut down. As you can imagine, this context, particularly the mounting pressure from ever increasingly senior levels of management escalating to executives gives rise to a predilection towards implementing "creative", albeit "temporary", solutions. So whereas in the motortrade you wouldn't want your name on a janky differential hatchet repair job that lasted six months, on oil rigs if the janky repair allowed operations to resume but only lasted for 4+1/2 weeks, allowing while proper bits to be sourced, you'd have done the company a great service. Although tragically, folks at my paygrade wouldn't get you a penny of the 4+1/2 weeks@ £20k per hour you'd have saved the company.
I'd give serious consideration to it John, if nothing else it would buy you 6 months without having to cough up for a refurbished diff for a motor you are becoming wary/ambivalent about. If you do it, just make it a monthly PM to suck some oil out of it to check the glitter factor, if it starts getting too glittery, accelerate the timetable for the new diff, or make the decision to webuyanycar / PX it?
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I'm sure it'll clean up OK. There is a distinct burr on the top land, where the metal has been removed from the gear face and pushed out the way to it's new and current position. This has reduced tooth thickness by quite a degree, and also changed the face profile.
I'll have to clean up any high spots with a stone, and try to polish the tooth faces too, if nothing more than to reduce gear mesh noise.
My mentor was a proper old school automotive engineer, the kind that did the job once, because he did it right. That mindset has stuck with me for 35 year's, but also found me at loggerheads with clueless, profit orientated management on more than one occasion, so left the automotive industry.
The rest is a long story for another day.Before this diff issue, and having the engine run mostly ok, I was actually beginning to enjoy the FL2. It does everything I need from a vehicle, and isn't too heavy on fuel, which is always a bonus.
I'm hoping that once I'm past these "teething" issues, it'll be a reliable and comfortable form if transport.
This is the reason I'm reluctant to use sub-standard diff, as I am reluctant to revisit it again in a few months.
Over Christmas, I had to revisit the daughter's Fiat 500 gearbox, as I changed the clutch last April because it was slipping. However the gearbox input bearing had failed and was leaking oil on the clutch, which was responsible for the slipping. Unfortunately I couldn't get a replacement box in the time I had available, so I put the leaking box back on. This then allowed me get her mobile again, and gave me 6 months to find another box. Of course I had to change the clutch for a second time, but at least it's now done properly.
I'm reluctant to do this with the Freelander diff, but if I've no choice, then I will. It's not too difficult to get out, now I know the procedure.
I just don't want it seizing again, as that will always be in the back of my mind. However now I know just how bad it needs to be to do that, the chances of a second seizure are remote.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
I'm hoping nothing else is going to fail in the short term, although I suspect it'll need a clutch sooner or later, as it got some abuse getting the vehicle off the carriageway with locked rear wheels.
If I can free the pinion, and it's serviceable (not bent), then I'm thinking that maybe it'll be a short term repair, until a sensible priced replacement can be found.
The pinion is stuck fast at the moment. Unfortunately I can't release the securing nut, but I'll try to work a way to shift that at the weekend. If removing the nut allows the pinion to come out the casing, then there's a fighting chance I can get it working again, at least in the short term.
Combellacks have an 07 plate FL2 TD4 at the moment if it's of any interest. They aren't know for being the cheapest though...
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
Unfortunately They want more for a high mileage unknown condition diff, than I can buy low mileage 2014 diff for.
That could end up being a massive time sink, maybes too much time for a sub optimal solution that you're probably going to have to revisit?
Generally that is the way I like to operate - quality engineering is, after all, what made Britain great. I always felt bad about the temporary botches done to get an oil rig back on ops, but took great satisfaction in later putting them to rights, even if they were oftentimes fixed weeks or months afterward. However, much as I disliked the "cobble it together" approach that was sometimes necessary, I knew that it was utter narcissism to expect the rig(s) owner's to absorb six or seven figures of lost revenue just to appease my dislike of botching things.My mentor was a proper old school automotive engineer, the kind that did the job once, because he did it right. That mindset has stuck with me for 35 year's, but also found me at loggerheads with clueless, profit orientated management on more than one occasion, so left the automotive industry.
I know what you mean about cluelessness botchery in the motortrade, there are no real mechanics anymore, and its basically just fitters, plus the increased usage of salvaged parts is quite alarming. Put a car in to get a lazy starter motor fixed, there is a good chance that it will end up with a starter from a trade breakers yard, such as "Overton Dismantlers", whereas I'd rather strip my own starter, clean up the solenoid contacts and whack in a new set of bearings/bushes and brushes. Partially as atonement for the botchery offshore, and to prevent my cars getting maintained into the ground by these hapless (mis)fitters, is why I do the majority of the work on my own cars.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
If I spend a few hours with a stone, or de-burring tool, then it'll make me feel I'm doing all I can to keep the diff quiet, at least for the time it's in use.
Until I get the pinion out the case, I've no idea if it's salvageable.
I'm still thinking of what oil to use, I'm thinking going with a heavy EP oil, to maintain oil film strength between the gears.
