badfluffy
Well-Known Member
normaly is when ive cut my fingers on some sharp edgeNope, our mate meant a red device, didn't you @badfluffy
I might be missing the point of some of the ideas posted here so if that's the case I apologise and please help me to understand what you mean. A couple of bits suggested have been bad earths, corroded connectors and scanning so let me explain my thoughts on those for you to pick the bones out of:
The way is see this is that before I can make any meaningful progress, I have to narrow the field of investigation here, the common denominator is communication between nodes so I feel I have to find the one that is causing the issue. Be that a bad earth to it, corroded connector or whatever, it simply can't be everything. If I don't disconnect them all to find the one that is causing it, how do I move forward?
I can scan each device individually but the result is always the same. Everything single node is in fault. I have stripped a fair bit of the dash out today, disconnected the instrument cluster and scanned it again everything else remains in fault so I can fairly safely say that it's not that device causing the issue. It is also not the CD changer either as that was out at the same time. I can't find the suspension module though, all YT videos seem to suggest it is in the passenger footwell but there's nothing there in my car so maybe on the 2010 it has moved?
As time allows I will strip the boot out and just go through everything I can find to disconnect there and retest. I take on the point about serial CAN devices but even so it will help me get closer surely. Amazingly, the only thing that never has any faults is the engine ECU. That is clearly a separated item.
Thanks for the suggestions though, keep 'em coming. I have to fix this, it can't beat me.
The way is see this is that before I can make any meaningful progress, I have to narrow the field of investigation here, the common denominator is communication between nodes so I feel I have to find the one that is causing the issue. Be that a bad earth to it, corroded connector or whatever, it simply can't be everything. If I don't disconnect them all to find the one that is causing it, how do I move forward?
I can scan each device individually but the result is always the same. Everything single node is in fault. I have stripped a fair bit of the dash out today, disconnected the instrument cluster and scanned it again everything else remains in fault so I can fairly safely say that it's not that device causing the issue. It is also not the CD changer either as that was out at the same time. I can't find the suspension module though, all YT videos seem to suggest it is in the passenger footwell but there's nothing there in my car so maybe on the 2010 it has moved?
As time allows I will strip the boot out and just go through everything I can find to disconnect there and retest. I take on the point about serial CAN devices but even so it will help me get closer surely. Amazingly, the only thing that never has any faults is the engine ECU. That is clearly a separated item.
Thanks for the suggestions though, keep 'em coming. I have to fix this, it can't beat me.
I don't have one of these more modern JLR nightmares so please forgive me.
All of these very clever ECU's report back to HQ who formulates all the info into warning messages on the console and into readable logs for diagnostic tools.
I would think either "HQ" has gone "duff" OR HQ is OK but the telephone lines down to all of the sub-departments is hosed.
I thought there were several "Buss-es" CAN, K etc.
If comms is down then the central HQ brain is going to think they have all perished under enemy attacks and report their demise to you wholesale. Is there a "Buss Tester" tool to check comms is working on each of the communication busses?
Are some of them Optical? Has a connection been disturbed, leading to a major disconnect?
All of these very clever ECU's report back to HQ who formulates all the info into warning messages on the console and into readable logs for diagnostic tools.
I would think either "HQ" has gone "duff" OR HQ is OK but the telephone lines down to all of the sub-departments is hosed.
I thought there were several "Buss-es" CAN, K etc.
If comms is down then the central HQ brain is going to think they have all perished under enemy attacks and report their demise to you wholesale. Is there a "Buss Tester" tool to check comms is working on each of the communication busses?
Are some of them Optical? Has a connection been disturbed, leading to a major disconnect?
Datatek
Well-Known Member
Often easier to go round looking for corroded connectors or defective earth points than searching for a needle in the electronic. haystack
What diagnostic tool are you using? has it worked ok on this car before?
They all talk to each other Dan, one module that finds fault can cause errors through the network.
I had a 2009 xc90 volvo at the garage that two other garages wrote off as scrap, one garage blamed the gbox and it's filter and ecu. They changed it to no avail.
I found fault in the engine ecu that there was a misfire on injector n°2.
Ford wiring...
We had abs, tc and a gearbox locked on third and all faulted, I replaced all the injector electrical plugs, cleared the faults and it drove beautifully.
Interconnected ecus mate.... Nightmare
GapIID, iCarsoft Max and Launch CRP123, yes all have worked fine before.
Yeah, and that pretty much agrees with my plan of disconnecting until I find the culprit (or eliminate them from enquiries). Feels more like looking for a needle in a stack of needles right now.
If I narrow it to say, the RLM for example and it is actually a dodgy sensor I should be able to disconnect that ECU, and (I'm hoping here) have all other issues resolve until I plug that back in. Then I can look at connector/earth wiring shorts etc. and other sensors related to that area until I find the particular needle.
I'm going to start again in the boot as there are several there that I didn't get to remove. When I man up enough to lift the spare out I can get to the compressor which seems to be working fine but must be connected as I can view the temperature of it and the motor etc. so all that comms has to be there.
Still not found any water ingress yet which is a double edged sword as I am pleased it doesn't leak (that I can see) but also hasn't helped my narrow the search either.
Does anyone know where the Ride Level Module is in the 2010? It's not where all the web resources suggest as per the <2009 cars in the passenger footwell typically.
Datatek
Well-Known Member
Not sure you can just disconnect modules as they are I think all interconnected.
If you're disconnecting fibres you just loop them out.
Fibres are all MOST bus and amazingly, that part works. I do have loops though if I can isolate to a unit on that bus but I think they are all ok.
The ones I have done that have made no difference so far are:
Instrument Cluster
CD changer
Head Unit
Amplifier
Parking Aid Module
Bluetooth
No faults on:
Engine ECU
Fuel Burning Heater (as it's on the bench in the garage but it has no effect overall if fitted or not to the car).
Still to do a Disconnect test:
ABS Module (ABS is working so I doubt this to be the culprit as I'd expect a dash warning but you never know)
Adaptive Damping
APIM Acc. Interface (not sure if this is one item or many)
ATCM Terrain Response (must have a controller but where?)
BCM (This is one that may well not tell me anything if I disconnect it as it could be the catalyst for all, it's easy to get to so I may well just try it).
Drivers Door Module
Passenger Door Module
Navigation module
RLM - Suspension Module (this is the most aggressive in terms of regular errors so I'd really like to find and check/disconnect it)
Steering Angle Sensor
Telephone (I suspect this is the BT one I've already tried).
If that lot is inconclusive, I may be a bit stuck for a while.
So far it has been ok to disconnect individual modules. They obviously fail and show "not fitted" but I can live with that as I should get comms to other devices. I've never come across anything aside from the fibre stuff that loses comms to all other devices if you remove one... Until perhaps now I guess.
The ones I have done that have made no difference so far are:
Instrument Cluster
CD changer
Head Unit
Amplifier
Parking Aid Module
Bluetooth
No faults on:
Engine ECU
Fuel Burning Heater (as it's on the bench in the garage but it has no effect overall if fitted or not to the car).
Still to do a Disconnect test:
ABS Module (ABS is working so I doubt this to be the culprit as I'd expect a dash warning but you never know)
Adaptive Damping
APIM Acc. Interface (not sure if this is one item or many)
ATCM Terrain Response (must have a controller but where?)
BCM (This is one that may well not tell me anything if I disconnect it as it could be the catalyst for all, it's easy to get to so I may well just try it).
Drivers Door Module
Passenger Door Module
Navigation module
RLM - Suspension Module (this is the most aggressive in terms of regular errors so I'd really like to find and check/disconnect it)
Steering Angle Sensor
Telephone (I suspect this is the BT one I've already tried).
If that lot is inconclusive, I may be a bit stuck for a while.
No, not a chance but this issue started before the battery was replaced anyway.
Don't know if this bit of light reading will help. The MOST test may show lots of data being sent but doubt it will mean anything.
Use the following procedure to get access to the diagnostic screens.
Insert the vehicle key in the ignition switch and turn to the ignition position II.
Once the 'CAUTION' screen has been displayed, press the 'AGREE' virtual button in the bottom right hand corner of the TSD. The 'Home Menu' will be displayed.
In a central position at the top of the TSD, press the screen and hold for 5 seconds, then release and press and hold the navigation physical button for 5 seconds and release. A 'Diag PIN Entry' box will appear.
In the 'Diag PIN Entry' box, enter the diagnostic PIN entry code of '753' and press the 'OK' icon on the TSD. A 'Diagnostics Menu' screen will appear.
The following selections can be made from the 'Diagnostics Menu' screen.
- Hard Key Test (physical buttons)
- Touch Switch Test (virtual icons)
- Vehicle signals
- Video Inputs Test
- RGB Color Test
- Self Test
- Configurations
- Vehicle Configurations
- MOST Test
Once a screen display is complete, you can return to the previous menu screen by pressing the return icon in the top right hand corner of the TSD.
Hard Key Test
- This screen displays a 'Hard Key Test Form' screen. The hard key test verifies the correct function of each of the physical buttons which surround the TSD. Pressing each button in turn will turn the applicable icon in the TSD green if the button is functioning correctly.
Touch Switch Test
- This screen displays the 'Touch Switch Test' screen which gives two selections; 'Start Calibration' and 'Touch Switch Check'.
- The 'Start Calibration' screen allows re-calibration of the screen. The touch screen co-ordinates can be aligned by pressing a series of on screen targets. To return to the 'Touch Switch Test' screen, press the 'Navigation' physical button.
- The 'Touch Switch Check' screen displays a blank screen. Touching the screen will display a series of co-ordinates for the area of the screen which has been touched. This can be used to check if an area of the screen has a fault.
Vehicle Signals
- The vehicle signals screen displays inputs from other vehicle systems. The screen shows the 'real time' parameters and status of the following:
- Battery voltage
- Lights (on/off)
- Ambient light sensor voltage
- Backlight dimming duty (pulse width modulation (PWM) %)
- Graphic illumination dimming duty (PWM %)
- Output audio allocation (amplitude modulation (AM)/FM tuner, CD, Navigation, DVD, TV)
- PCB Temperature
- Speed inhibit (overspeed) (on/off)
- MOST FOT temperature (°C)
- Parking position (Park brake on/off)
- Backlight PWM duty
- Beep volume
- Beep tone.
Video Inputs Test
- The video inputs test screen allows the video inputs from the Venture Cam, Rear View Camera and the TV/DVD to be tested.
- Pressing the 'Companion Camera' icon enables the Venture Cam display. The Venture Cam must be removed from its docking station and switched on. The display can be switched between PAL and NTSC and also in two wide-screen formats and a normal view.
- Pressing the 'Rear View Camera' icon enables the rear view camera display. The display can be switched between PAL and NTSC and also in two wide-screen formats and a normal view.
- Pressing the 'TV/DVD' icon enables the display from the TV tuner or the DVD player. The display can be switched between PAL and NTSC and also in two wide-screen formats and a normal view.
RGB Color Test
- The RGB color test form screen allows the TSD color outputs to be tested. By pressing each color in turn, the whole screen is displayed in that color and the whole screen area can be checked for uniform color display. Pressing the screen a second time returns to the RGB color test form screen.
Self Test
- The 'Self Test' screen displays the current ignition switch position, the battery output voltage and the diagnostic session. After a few seconds, the display will show any existing fault conditions in the form of a diagnostic trouble code and a brief description.
Configurations
- The 'Configurations' screen allows the data for the TSD and also the Navigation Computer to be displayed. The display can be switched between the TSD and the Navigation computer by pressing the icon in the top left hand corner of the screen, which displays either 'Show MMM Information' (navigation computer) or 'Show HLDF Information' (TSD).
- Each screen shows the following information:
- Vehicle Type
- Serial Number
- Part Number / Parts Level
- Land Rover Software Version
- MOST SWDL Block Size
- Main CPU Software/Bootloader Versions
- Main CPU Application Version
- Sub CPU Software Version
- Private CAN Database Version
Vehicle Configurations
- The 'Vehicle Configurations' screen has four separate screens which show information for each of the audio/navigation system components. Each screen can be displayed by pressing the 'Next' icon in the bottom right hand corner of the screen. A previous screen can be displayed by pressing the 'Prev.' icon adjacent to the 'Next' icon.
MOST Test
- The 'Most Test Form' screen shows the information being passed on the MOST ring for each driver input. For example, when the screen is displayed, adjusting the volume control using the TSD rotary control or the steering wheel switches will show the MOST ring signals being transmitted. This can be repeated for each function to establish that the driver request is being transmitted on the MOST ring.
Use the following procedure to get access to the diagnostic screens.
Insert the vehicle key in the ignition switch and turn to the ignition position II.
Once the 'CAUTION' screen has been displayed, press the 'AGREE' virtual button in the bottom right hand corner of the TSD. The 'Home Menu' will be displayed.
In a central position at the top of the TSD, press the screen and hold for 5 seconds, then release and press and hold the navigation physical button for 5 seconds and release. A 'Diag PIN Entry' box will appear.
In the 'Diag PIN Entry' box, enter the diagnostic PIN entry code of '753' and press the 'OK' icon on the TSD. A 'Diagnostics Menu' screen will appear.
The following selections can be made from the 'Diagnostics Menu' screen.
- Hard Key Test (physical buttons)
- Touch Switch Test (virtual icons)
- Vehicle signals
- Video Inputs Test
- RGB Color Test
- Self Test
- Configurations
- Vehicle Configurations
- MOST Test
Once a screen display is complete, you can return to the previous menu screen by pressing the return icon in the top right hand corner of the TSD.
Hard Key Test
- This screen displays a 'Hard Key Test Form' screen. The hard key test verifies the correct function of each of the physical buttons which surround the TSD. Pressing each button in turn will turn the applicable icon in the TSD green if the button is functioning correctly.
Touch Switch Test
- This screen displays the 'Touch Switch Test' screen which gives two selections; 'Start Calibration' and 'Touch Switch Check'.
- The 'Start Calibration' screen allows re-calibration of the screen. The touch screen co-ordinates can be aligned by pressing a series of on screen targets. To return to the 'Touch Switch Test' screen, press the 'Navigation' physical button.
- The 'Touch Switch Check' screen displays a blank screen. Touching the screen will display a series of co-ordinates for the area of the screen which has been touched. This can be used to check if an area of the screen has a fault.
Vehicle Signals
- The vehicle signals screen displays inputs from other vehicle systems. The screen shows the 'real time' parameters and status of the following:
- Battery voltage
- Lights (on/off)
- Ambient light sensor voltage
- Backlight dimming duty (pulse width modulation (PWM) %)
- Graphic illumination dimming duty (PWM %)
- Output audio allocation (amplitude modulation (AM)/FM tuner, CD, Navigation, DVD, TV)
- PCB Temperature
- Speed inhibit (overspeed) (on/off)
- MOST FOT temperature (°C)
- Parking position (Park brake on/off)
- Backlight PWM duty
- Beep volume
- Beep tone.
Video Inputs Test
- The video inputs test screen allows the video inputs from the Venture Cam, Rear View Camera and the TV/DVD to be tested.
- Pressing the 'Companion Camera' icon enables the Venture Cam display. The Venture Cam must be removed from its docking station and switched on. The display can be switched between PAL and NTSC and also in two wide-screen formats and a normal view.
- Pressing the 'Rear View Camera' icon enables the rear view camera display. The display can be switched between PAL and NTSC and also in two wide-screen formats and a normal view.
- Pressing the 'TV/DVD' icon enables the display from the TV tuner or the DVD player. The display can be switched between PAL and NTSC and also in two wide-screen formats and a normal view.
RGB Color Test
- The RGB color test form screen allows the TSD color outputs to be tested. By pressing each color in turn, the whole screen is displayed in that color and the whole screen area can be checked for uniform color display. Pressing the screen a second time returns to the RGB color test form screen.
Self Test
- The 'Self Test' screen displays the current ignition switch position, the battery output voltage and the diagnostic session. After a few seconds, the display will show any existing fault conditions in the form of a diagnostic trouble code and a brief description.
Configurations
- The 'Configurations' screen allows the data for the TSD and also the Navigation Computer to be displayed. The display can be switched between the TSD and the Navigation computer by pressing the icon in the top left hand corner of the screen, which displays either 'Show MMM Information' (navigation computer) or 'Show HLDF Information' (TSD).
- Each screen shows the following information:
- Vehicle Type
- Serial Number
- Part Number / Parts Level
- Land Rover Software Version
- MOST SWDL Block Size
- Main CPU Software/Bootloader Versions
- Main CPU Application Version
- Sub CPU Software Version
- Private CAN Database Version
Vehicle Configurations
- The 'Vehicle Configurations' screen has four separate screens which show information for each of the audio/navigation system components. Each screen can be displayed by pressing the 'Next' icon in the bottom right hand corner of the screen. A previous screen can be displayed by pressing the 'Prev.' icon adjacent to the 'Next' icon.
MOST Test
- The 'Most Test Form' screen shows the information being passed on the MOST ring for each driver input. For example, when the screen is displayed, adjusting the volume control using the TSD rotary control or the steering wheel switches will show the MOST ring signals being transmitted. This can be repeated for each function to establish that the driver request is being transmitted on the MOST ring.
Bit more
CAN BUS
The CAN bus is a high speed broadcast network where control modules automatically transmit information every few milliseconds. Information is broadcast down a pair of twisted wires, known as CAN high and CAN low. Information is transmitted on the CAN bus as a voltage difference between the 2 wires.
Two CAN networks are used on the vehicle; medium speed and high speed, with the instrument cluster acting as a gateway between the 2 networks.
Both the medium and high speed CAN bus are connected to the instrument cluster and the diagnostic socket. The medium speed CAN bus terminates at the integrated head unit and the immobilization control module. The high speed CAN bus terminates at the parking brake control module and the anti-lock brake system (ABS) control module.
Control modules are connected in a loop or spur configuration. Should a control module that is looped suffer a connector failure, the bus system will separate into 2 sub-busses. Some communication may still be possible within each sub-bus, but symptoms may be noticed by the driver.
CAN BUS
The CAN bus is a high speed broadcast network where control modules automatically transmit information every few milliseconds. Information is broadcast down a pair of twisted wires, known as CAN high and CAN low. Information is transmitted on the CAN bus as a voltage difference between the 2 wires.
Two CAN networks are used on the vehicle; medium speed and high speed, with the instrument cluster acting as a gateway between the 2 networks.
Both the medium and high speed CAN bus are connected to the instrument cluster and the diagnostic socket. The medium speed CAN bus terminates at the integrated head unit and the immobilization control module. The high speed CAN bus terminates at the parking brake control module and the anti-lock brake system (ABS) control module.
Control modules are connected in a loop or spur configuration. Should a control module that is looped suffer a connector failure, the bus system will separate into 2 sub-busses. Some communication may still be possible within each sub-bus, but symptoms may be noticed by the driver.
Do they all report the same faults?
Sort of, iCarsoft will no longer talk to the car but the others all do and that now includes a £2k Autel (I think that was the brand)
I am almost at the point of begging for help to locate all the modules now. This is the route I want to go for narrowing the field, I may be wrong but it is the only way I can see to do it. Can anybody help me with a location map of them all for the 2010>2012 L322?
Are there any in particular you are having trouble finding?
L322 - MOST system parts
Hi, Help needed . 2012 Vogue 4.4 Diesel. MOST system head unit has been diagnosed as faulty / not sending any signal. Need to find a replacement unit(hopefully eBay). Has any got the part number for the head unit as struggling to find . Any help greatly appreciated.
www.landyzone.co.uk
This thread is for the MOST ring but does list some modules.
I will take a look at my files for 2010 & 2011 and see if there is a layout.
Have you actually tested your CAN lines with a meter? I believe there are some simple test you can do.
J
Air suspension is the main one my friend. All online detail suggests it's at the bottom of the A pillar but it's not and they are always <2009 cars. I can't find RAVE for the 2010> either, can you PM a link for it if you have it please?Are there any in particular you are having trouble finding?
L322 - MOST system parts
Hi, Help needed . 2012 Vogue 4.4 Diesel. MOST system head unit has been diagnosed as faulty / not sending any signal. Need to find a replacement unit(hopefully eBay). Has any got the part number for the head unit as struggling to find . Any help greatly appreciated.
This thread is for the MOST ring but does list some modules.
I will take a look at my files for 2010 & 2011 and see if there is a layout.
Have you actually tested your CAN lines with a meter? I believe there are some simple test you can do.
J
I haven't tested the CAN lines as I have no starting point for it. I am utterly convinced I have a module ruining it for everybody so I need to narrow it down. If I can find the one (I assume) that when disconnected stops absolutely everything being in fault it will help me to know where to look, be it the module itself, corrosion in the connectors, earth issue etc. This is such a crazy problem because I just don't know where to begin.
If I test the CAN lines, what will it tell me? There has to be voltage/signal on the line but I won't know with a meter where or what is being generated or is there something more I can do?
Just removed every piece of audio kit in the boot and checked. All faults still exist with everything else, obviously the Audio stuff was showing as "Not fitted" at that time.
This was a fun lunchtime task
Whist on this boot subject, can anyone else confirm whether or not the spare wheel lifting straps have been removed by LR on later cars or just on mine. You can see the bolt holes by the jack for them but they don't look as though they've ever been fitted and I think it is such a brilliant idea, even more so as I had to lift that lump out earlier. I might try and get some from a breaker at some point when I've fixed the car.
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