Very pleased about starting this thread. I have learned a lot from it. It is true, that Colin been very helpful and if he makes a living out of this as well...Good luck to him.
It is not compulsory to buy his products after all. But I will buy one, because over the long term will save a lot of money for me. That is the bottom line for most of us. I think.
If someone does not agree, well, do not buy from him. Simple.
:argue:
 
Very pleased about starting this thread. I have learned a lot from it. It is true, that Colin been very helpful and if he makes a living out of this as well...Good luck to him.
It is not compulsory to buy his products after all. But I will buy one, because over the long term will save a lot of money for me. That is the bottom line for most of us. I think.
If someone does not agree, well, do not buy from him. Simple.
:argue:

It is if you want to save your lot of money, there is little else available. :):)
 
Don't easily have the option of the stealers here either. It's a no brainer, if you have a
P38 you have to be able to maintain it. The choice is Testbook, Autologic or BBS. BBS wins hands down at this moment in time.
 
Don't easily have the option of the stealers here either. It's a no brainer, if you have a
P38 you have to be able to maintain it. The choice is Testbook, Autologic or BBS. BBS wins hands down at this moment in time.

Yes that is true. The only affordable option at this time is the BBS unit. A sad consiquence of Lane Rover designing the P38 not to be, except for the most basic items, owner servicable.
 
Many thanks to you all for your alternative equipment comparison comments about BBS equipment versus current alternatives.

And also the Interesting comments rasheed makes about the seeming negativity aspects of our SV (Lock to VIN) licensing policy.

I would like to clarify that our equipment does not just mimic and provide exactly the same capabilities as dealers own T4 equipment or anything else, It actually provides access and capability way beyond.
Unless you happened to own both, and few do, you would of course not know this. And that's a factor other equipment actually relies upon in their sales blurb.
There might well be a tick in the box in the settings column next to an ECU, but that hardly details exactly what you will actually get access to and how would any buyer ever get to know if something is missing.

To give a prime example, using the core ECU of the P38's BeCM.

A T4 dealer system provides 3 separately adjustable settings. Front Fogs, enabled or disabled, Sunroof and Cruise, fitted or not.

By comparison a BBS system provides a page of about 40 BeCM settings where front fogs can be set to not just enabled, but with Rear Fogs, with dipped or main beam etc as you prefer.
Here is a link to the help page for the MSV-2 listing exactly what is possible
https://www.blackbox-solutions.com/shop/help/SM022.html

You can save the provided HTML page of settings with any name you wish and re write it back, as was, or modified if you prefer to another replacement ECU or just restore it if you want to have a play with settings, and want to start over, as you wish.

You can also access half a dozen pages showing input status's and a half a dozen more allowing the direct driving of as wished and much more.

If you have a problem with a window or fuel flap release, the T4 can get you to the root of the problem, but only after 10 times the time and effort an MSV-2 would take, and if you are paying by the hour, that's important.

I may be the BBS Guy, but anyone can clearly see for them self that in respect of access and capability our equipment is really in a league of it's own.
However, providing such is not without cost and ordinarily that cost is well acceptable and indeed very profitable for profit making businesses, and who once was our sole custom base, but is obviously just that bit too unaffordable for private owners and enthusiasts.

We were the first to try and rectify this and provide LR dedicated diagnostic equipment affordable enough to end up outside the business circle. And most notably with our SV concept, we have tried to find a unique and innovative way to supply our noted top end equipment and its immense capability to private individuals and enthusiasts at a much reduced cost than normal.

Sadly however many, do not seem or want to appreciate the cost / value difference between our equipment and any other, or conveniently choose to dis regard that aspect, despite having chosen a Land Rover over any lesser 4x4, and think / post that our SV concept is an unfair restriction over what they must otherwise imagine is like for like equipment.

It is not, It is a just a new and innovative extra option for gaining the benefit of dedicated LR diagnostic equipment over what you had before.

Before, you could either buy a 20 inch LCD and share it with as many mates as you wish, or spend more and get a 50 inch LCD to share with your mates. Totally your choice.

Uniquely I offer you new and different option, for the same cost as a 20 inch, you can have a 50 inch, but only you can watch it. No Pub's clubs, Cinemas or other such public usage allowed. Sound Familiar :eek:

You could try the, yea but if you sold your 50 Inch LCDs at 20 inch prices you would sell more and make up the difference. But might i point you to the threads on here from the delighted buyers of our MV sync mates who state what a wonderful bit of kit it is and thank us for producing it ( in essence spending the time and money to develop it) and then in their next line, offer to loan or rent it out to anyone. :doh:

Our SV (lock to VIN) licensing might sound overly restrictive and inflexible, however nothing could be further from the truth. If i could find a way to lock our system to an individual, i would, but in the meantime, the best i can do is lock it to their current vehicles VIN and provide a cheap, and easy as possible way for them to swap vehicles as they wish and keep their BBS system with them, or sell it on to another owner if they leave the marque :doh:

I apologize of course if i have some how over stepped the mark in any promotional aspects of our equipment entered into, however i think that it was only fair, under the circumstances, for me to reiterate, clarify and raise awareness of the non Like for Like comparison aspects of our equipment and defend and respond to the criticism raised against our SV (Lock to VIN) marketing policies.
 
Nobody realises the cost of software development. Hardware is, as I know to my cost peanuts in the product cost calculation.
The Television comparison is stupid, you can have your mates round to watch you play with your MSV, equally you cannot copy the software that operates an LCD television even though the operating system (Linux in many cases) is open source software and load it into another television.

Not trying to support BBS Guy, only pointing out that software development is expensive.
 
Our SV (lock to VIN) licensing might sound overly restrictive and inflexible,

It is to some degree understandable that you choose to lock your product to a Vin number. It stops people reading other peoples codes and therefore you sell more units. Good business. However there are lots of code readers on the market, which as far as i can see your SV unit is, for around £50.00 to £60.00 that read numerous makes of vehicle and are not locked to any particular one. That is because the vehicle makers have been less devious than Land Rover and made their diagnostics industry standard. Well done, you have cornered a market.
 
BBS Guy, that's a very lucid explanation, thank you. As I have made clear in each of my posts I have nothing at all against you or your product. Indeed I'm considering buying a Faultmate despite the fact I have cost-free access to to the current T4 IDS (which has a new name but I don't remember what). In other words, entirely based on the word-of-mouth, I am convinced your product is better.

Secondly, I fully understand the need to protect your effort and investment and indeed intellectual property (although I wouldn't want to argue that one too much since the ground floor of this particular skyscraper belongs to LR and their various control and management systems). I've never tried to deny you that and if this was the impression taken then I apologise.

When I first commented, where we first crossed swords so to speak, (I think it was P38_Ireland's thread), I raised a voice about (ab)using the forum for self-promotion because that was just how it looked to me. Fair enough if not all shared my opinion, that's the freedom of the forum; and even fairer because it did seem to me that you toned down immediately, leading me to acknowledge that it was probably more enthusiasm on your part rather than the cynical pursuit of lucre that led you to write at such frequency and length about the comparative virtues of your products. It could after all appear a little discrepant that a firm that issues SV licences is perceived as to be subverting a free-of-cost, non-commercial, not-for-profit arena such as LandyZone in to a promotional tool.

The point I made in this thread is perhaps really part of a wider debate of how much ownership of IP is transferred through the sales transaction. At work we have some very expensive statistical analysis and modelling software. Its licensed for a certain number of PCs, its fully supported by the manufacturer and we can't just copy it on a USB stick and give it to our friends. But we can allow our friends to come over and use our system with their data (ie the equivalent of another VIN, to solve their problems. With Rovacom you had a dealer-level product, with Rovacom Lite you had a private user level product. Without resorting to restrictive practices you clearly sold enough to grow your company. Your business model then was to allow private users to pick and choose what capabilities they most wanted, pay only for those and tailor their system to their specific needs. As an analog person this makes intuitive sense to me. Don't want a sunroof? Don't pay for one. Want alloy wheels? Ok, pay this much more. Fine.

Now I don't know a lot about the innards so forgive me if I'm way off track but I imagine you didn't have to reinvent the wheel when you made the Faultmates. You presumably didn't have to write new code for P38s or older Discoveries etc. What you did have to do was write new code to cover the new vehicles. Yet, from the perspective of D2 owners or P38 owners the only difference now is the SV lock. You could have chosen to go for single-model products, ie, a P38 system won't work with a Disco or L322 but you didn't. Probably had to do with manufacturing efficiencies, I don't know, but it would have offered you largely the same protection.

So where is the value proposition? I confess I haven't tried to price what a Rovacom lite with all modules would have cost versus a single-user Faultmate today but if it is a win-win situation for the customer perhaps you should highlight it. Would have ended this debate before it started as far as I'm concerned because you're right: your analogy of 20 inch and 50 inch TV prices comes in to play. Nobody would be discussing this if the FCR were a 100 quid or the SV, 200. Make the MV 50% more expensive by all means, its would still be cheaper than T4. That would clearly differentiate between private and business users and you would also be justified in portraying yourself as the champion of private owners as you so often do. I'm not telling you how to run your business, mind. Far from it. I just don't want to be made to feel beholden to someone if also paying handsomely for their services.

In closing, let me compliment you on being a fair and patient debater. I've enjoyed the exchanges with you and perhaps others have been entertained by reading us. :tea:
 
Nobody realises the cost of software development. Hardware is, as I know to my cost peanuts in the product cost calculation.
The Television comparison is stupid, you can have your mates round to watch you play with your MSV, equally you cannot copy the software that operates an LCD television even though the operating system (Linux in many cases) is open source software and load it into another television.

Not trying to support BBS Guy, only pointing out that software development is expensive.


Hiya Data! Don't want to **** you off particularly as I rely so often on your advice :D but I think you missed the point on the TV analogy. Its not about extracting the software to run another TV. Its about saying once I buy something and own it and I have paid a fair price for it, it might contain proprietary technology (as all TVs do) but I should be allowed to use it as I please short of reverse-engineering or patent-infringing etc.

Perhaps the content provider side of the analogy is more apt. I'm sure Murdoch will figure out a way eventually but at least at the moment while I agree to pay per view, at least I'm not expected to pay per viewer. And that would be equivalent to diagnostic equipment manufacturers asking for revenue share or royalties for every penny or pound billed (if by a garage) or saved (if by a private user). It could happen. I'm sure the technology exists. (Damn, have I given anyone ideas!? :eek: )
 
Hiya Data! Don't want to **** you off particularly as I rely so often on your advice :D but I think you missed the point on the TV analogy. Its not about extracting the software to run another TV. Its about saying once I buy something and own it and I have paid a fair price for it, it might contain proprietary technology (as all TVs do) but I should be allowed to use it as I please short of reverse-engineering or patent-infringing etc.

Perhaps the content provider side of the analogy is more apt. I'm sure Murdoch will figure out a way eventually but at least at the moment while I agree to pay per view, at least I'm not expected to pay per viewer. And that would be equivalent to diagnostic equipment manufacturers asking for revenue share or royalties for every penny or pound billed (if by a garage) or saved (if by a private user). It could happen. I'm sure the technology exists. (Damn, have I given anyone ideas!? :eek: )

BBS diagnostic kits actually already have that capability. You can transfer your FCR or Extreme to another VIN for a small fee (~£20). It's designed for when you replace your Rangie with another. I can't see why that can't be done ad-infinitum. It just a case of setting a fee for a club or independant garage/cottage industry.
At the moment LR charge ~£100 for a fault session.
If BBS was interested in getting into that market they could set a software fee for say £25 payable to them per vehicle for a transfer of FCR over and back.

A few of you may get apopolectic at the thought of that but its all about affordability while still making a buck.
 
there are lots of code readers on the market, which as far as i can see your SV unit is,

Ahh, now i understand your mis understanding wammers.

Did you read my post this thread?
Contrary to point,you might note that i do not mention our equipment once.
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/there-diagnostics-rr-similar-vagcom-112529.html

Because the cost of the SV is getting close to that of Genic OBDII code readers, many see it and mistakenly class it as such, dismissivly consider it as nothing more than an expensive version and look no further.

I can but only hope that you look at these example help pages from our system and note the level of access and capability provided.

Body Control for P38 (BeCM)
https://www.blackbox-solutions.com/shop/help/SM022.html

Body Control for L322 (BCU)
https://www.blackbox-solutions.com/shop/help/SM042.html

You really cannot seriously hope to expect this kind of access and capability to be developed and provided for all a vehicles on board ECU's (7 or 8 in a P38 and 20 to 25 in an L322) for just 50 or 60 GBP.

In fact the only equipment that comes even slightly close, costs several thousand GBP :doh:

Rasheed
Thanks for your obviously considered and thoughtful post which TBH i am still going to have to re read a few times yet to fully absorb :)

I don't hold grudges, don't have the time or memory to allocate for that, and any and everyone is equally entitled to voice their opinion IMHO. A bit of crossing swords is enevitable but no reason to take things to heart.

Whenever i start to participate on a forum, i never disguise who i am, I mean, i could hardly have chosen a more indicative user name, and as such i am usually initially met with many, what does it cost, what does it do, type questions about our equipment etc. Try as i might, i naturally cannot help myself but to respond to, as Cormac so elequently puts it, flushing a little with pride in my work. Typically this passes quite naturally and i can start to spend more of the time i have free for posting participating in and possibly helping on other type threads, but i am not adverse to fair criticism and reminders ;)

It's now SDD or SSD i forget, but it sucks big time IMHO and makes an already awful user interface far worse.

SpudH
Very interesting and forward thinking idea Chap.:cool:
A refundable deposit, re licence fee and a bit of postage, certainly much more cost effective than what an LR fault session would cost.

I wonder how many, having got one and tried it, would then elect an option to keep it :)
 
Sorry my mistake should have read FCR code reader. Which is of course also SV (single vehicle). Of course there is no other code reader that reads Land Rover so i suppose it's Hobsons choice. However if anyone should require a code reader that does a multitude of vehicles, but sadly not Land Rover, they are readily available for around £50.00 to £60.00. And you can use them on as many vehicles as you like. Rather amused at the sales pitch on Ebay which suggests they are locked to one vehicle as a theft deterrent. And there's me thinking it was so you could'nt use it on another vehicle, how naive of me. As i said a lot of money for a code reader.
 
Of course there is no other code reader that reads Land Rover
You mean that there is no other code reader that reads all fault codes from every on board system on a Land Rover. Be that 8, 20 or 30 systems according to model.

Actually that only shows what great value the recent £183.03 Including VAT and Post and Packing for a faultmate FCR really was, especially for a stand alone tool over a PC based one, and probably why the participants are all now so very delighted including P38_Ireland, who so magnanimously said as much ;)

I actually thought that there was some cheap generic OBDII fault code readers that did read the OBDII legislated codes from the EMS on some models.

locked to one vehicle as a theft deterrent
Your vehicle cannot be used without your keys and vice versa, your keys are no use to anyone else either. This SV implimentation by LR is done soley for no other reason than theft deterrence of either and is of recognised benefit and value to the owner.

Scoff if you wish wammers, but in the past, our SV equipment has actually already been stolen from an unfortunate owners car, along with other stuff, and it's SV aspect ultimately led to it's eventual recovery.

So i really do thank you for high lighting that particular side benefit.
 
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You mean that there is no other code reader that reads all fault codes from every on board system on a Land Rover. Be that 8, 20 or 30 systems according to model.

Actually that only shows what great value the recent £183.03 Including VAT and Post and Packing for a faultmate FCR really was, especially for a stand alone tool over a PC based one, and probably why the participants are all now so very delighted including P38_Ireland, who so magnanimously said as much ;)

I actually thought that there was some cheap generic OBDII fault code readers that did read the OBDII legislated codes from the EMS on some models.


Your vehicle cannot be used without your keys and vice versa, your keys are no use to anyone else either. This SV implimentation by LR is done soley for no other reason than theft deterrence of either and is of recognised benefit and value to the owner.

Scoff if you wish wammers, but in the past, our SV equipment has actually already been stolen from an unfortunate owners car, along with other stuff, and it's SV aspect ultimately led to it's eventual recovery.

So i really do thank you for high lighting that particular side benefit.

Pull the other it plays i believe. The only reason your stuff is locked to any particular vehicle is so WE can't use it on our mates cars, and YOU can sell more units. Simples. EASKicker £116.90 plus post, code read and reset only. EASKicker with EKU01 kit (so you can change settings) £141.50 plus post. EAS cable and free EASunlock software on Ebay £18.95 or less if you make your own cable up and download free software. Same functionality as your £141.50 plus post unit. Now that is a no brainer. Your out to make as much as you can. Stop this bloody good samaritan bull**** for christ sake, we both know your on here to promote your company and products. I may even buy a FCR if the Wilson thing proves to be too long in the development, so i really don't hold any grudge. But i do believe in plain speaking. That is the way i see it, sorry if some people don't agree. But i come on here to help as much as i can, not to sell my services.
 
Pull the other it plays i believe. The only reason your stuff is locked to any particular vehicle is so WE can't use it on our mates cars, and YOU can sell more units. Simples. EASKicker £116.90 plus post, code read and reset only. EASKicker with EKU01 kit (so you can change settings) £141.50 plus post. EAS cable and free EASunlock software on Ebay £18.95 or less if you make your own cable up and download free software. Same functionality as your £141.50 plus post unit. Now that is a no brainer. Your out to make as much as you can. Stop this bloody good samaritan bull**** for christ sake, we both know your on here to promote your company and products. I may even buy a FCR if the Wilson thing proves to be too long in the development, so i really don't hold any grudge. But i do believe in plain speaking. That is the way i see it, sorry if some people don't agree. But i come on here to help as much as i can, not to sell my services.


Storey Wilson is also in business and his prices are not cheap, $198 + $26 shipping for his EAS buddy plus you might get caught for VAT and duty by the customs, that equates to £154, compare that to BBS, £116.90 plus P&P for a box that does the same job. Looks quite reasonable to me.
Low volume product always cost more, your cheap £50 code readers are mass market products that will work on literally 10's of millions of vehicles, the P38 is a low volume product and an increasingly rare beast, even if every owner bought a BBS code reader the volumes would still be relatively low. Wilsons business model is different to BBS, Wilson appears to be aiming at the DIY market, BBS seems to aim at the professional market but with the DIY market as a no doubt profitable add on.
I used to design and manufacture micro controllers, I know how much time and effort goes into making this stuff, if BBS Guy gets rich from his efforts then bloody good luck to him.

Wammers, if you want a really cheap code reader for your diesel engine ECU, buy a couple of inches of wire and 2 spade connectors, connect pin 4 to pin 15 on the OBD connector, turn on the ignition and count the flashes on the MIL light. You need to be quick and able to write without looking at the paper or you will miss some flashes. The 2 digit codes go from 12 to 97 with some gaps.
 
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