Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
Good thinking wammers but when I fitted a new LR genuine CKP sensor with a spacer (the sensor removed had no spacer fitted) it just would not start, remove the spacer and it started first time.
So what is going on? The main dealer agrees with you ALL Defender manual's should have a spacer (also said my one shows a spacer on the build spec).
As stated no start with a spacer good without.
Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
Do not feel you are hijacking the tread you are adding to it.
Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
I have decided to rewire the CKP sensor also using screened cable have been trying to find what cable I should use without success, I have been to Maplin and purchased a length of http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/single-core-dual-screened-cable-priced-per-metre-xs24b it is much larger outside diameter because it is double screened but of a good quality and very flexible. When fitting I intend to use also a protective sleeve to run it inside to the ECU.
Don't know to be honest. Bit of an enigma.
raywin
Well-Known Member
Well story so far:
Tip of the sensor is fine no damage ( no spacer was fitted) and tests out at 1258 Ohms,
But the cable was brittle and the copper exposed near the plug, also a scorched bit further back so I cut the cable and tinned it meaning to join it,
I found that I can get the plugs on Tbay so I ordered two ( cheap so may as well get a spare) this cuts out one joint which is one less potential failure, ordered some shrink sleeve at the same time.
Last night bought some cable from Maplins bought two types one singe shielded and one twin shielded, I had chance to check them today and I like the twin.
Would have been nicer with heavier conductors.
Just waiting for the rest of the bits to come and the rain to stop now.
Tip of the sensor is fine no damage ( no spacer was fitted) and tests out at 1258 Ohms,
But the cable was brittle and the copper exposed near the plug, also a scorched bit further back so I cut the cable and tinned it meaning to join it,
I found that I can get the plugs on Tbay so I ordered two ( cheap so may as well get a spare) this cuts out one joint which is one less potential failure, ordered some shrink sleeve at the same time.
Last night bought some cable from Maplins bought two types one singe shielded and one twin shielded, I had chance to check them today and I like the twin.
Would have been nicer with heavier conductors.
Just waiting for the rest of the bits to come and the rain to stop now.
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Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
Looks good.Well story so far:
Tip of the sensor is fine no damage ( no spacer was fitted) and tests out at 1258 Ohms,
But the cable was brittle and the copper exposed near the plug, also a scorched bit further back so I cut the cable and tinned it meaning to join it,
I found that I can get the plugs on Tbay so I ordered two ( cheap so may as well get a spare) this cuts out one joint which is one less potential failure, ordered some shrink sleeve at the same time.
Last night bought some cable from Maplins bought two types one singe shielded and one twin shielded, I had chance to check them today and I like the twin.
Would have been nicer with heavier conductors.
Just waiting for the rest of the bits to come and the rain to stop now.
I purchased a new connector kit from Vehicle wiring products Nottingham their part No is 01252 (Durite Part 0-012-52 two way female 39490) price £2.54
I hope the outcome is good for you.
Shifty1962
Well-Known Member
That is why I said try the spacer but if it wont start or misfires then remove it. My manual TD5 90 would not run reliably with the spacer fitted (misfired under load) but without the spacer it works just fine. I did initially fit a cheap pattern sensor with the spacer but it would not start and it also rubbed on the flywheel without the spacer so I ended up with a genuine sensor.
I've experimented with spacers on mine. It was originally fitted without a spacer, and when I tried one the engine failed to start, so took it out and things were fine. A dodgy sensor can give you Nanocom error messages such as 'high speed crank error' before it gives up completely.
With a TD5 that fails to start you can look at the rpm output via the Nanocom while turning it on the starter, to see if the sensor is working and not being interfered with by the electromagnetic field from the starter motor. It's typically 2-300 rpm.
just to add to Raywin's problem, it's not impossible for the TD5 ECU to fail. I've had this happen to me twice in four and a half years of TD5 ownership. This will not necessarily stop the Nanocom talking to the ECU, so you can't see that anything is wrong, aside from the fact that the car won't start. In addition, I (and a lot of other people, judging by what's written on the internet) have had trouble with TD5 looms going brittle - both the insulation and the copper wire - and losing continuity in critical places without apparently being damaged. I got a new main engine loom in early 2015 and it feels a lot more supple than the old one. I hope that's eliminated one major source of problems for the next few years.
With a TD5 that fails to start you can look at the rpm output via the Nanocom while turning it on the starter, to see if the sensor is working and not being interfered with by the electromagnetic field from the starter motor. It's typically 2-300 rpm.
just to add to Raywin's problem, it's not impossible for the TD5 ECU to fail. I've had this happen to me twice in four and a half years of TD5 ownership. This will not necessarily stop the Nanocom talking to the ECU, so you can't see that anything is wrong, aside from the fact that the car won't start. In addition, I (and a lot of other people, judging by what's written on the internet) have had trouble with TD5 looms going brittle - both the insulation and the copper wire - and losing continuity in critical places without apparently being damaged. I got a new main engine loom in early 2015 and it feels a lot more supple than the old one. I hope that's eliminated one major source of problems for the next few years.
Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
I have re-wired my CKP sensor today.
Originally I had planned to use -http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/single-core-dual-screened-cable-priced-per-metre-xs24b cable and run two wires but felt the overall diameter was too large and would put a strain on the connector on the CKP so decided to still run two cables but using http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/audio-single-screened-low-noise-cable-black-priced-per-metre-xr16s.
I stripped back aprox 40mm of the outer shield leaving the center conductor insulated. Exposing aprox 6mm of the centre conductor on two pieces of the cable to connect to the plug connectors I made the connectors off and then preceded to join the braded screening on both together. Then made good the screening by using insulating shrink tube. The CKP socket is now completed, just to add because the cable colours do not match the original I put a collar on each end with coloured tape to identify which conductor was which when I come to connect up at the ECU.
I fed the cable through a length of 1/2 inch convoluted plastic tube to protect then under the vehicle (tucking this well out of the way and securing with zip straps to the original harness). The grommet that the original harness enter the under drivers seat box has a takeoff point that is not used so I utilised this for the new CKP sensor wiring and then snipped off the original cable from the red plug at the ECU, leaving aprox 75mm of the original cable to be able to strip tin and solder the joints to the new cable (remembering to first slide on some shrink insulating tube to make good the joint after soldering).
I made off three wires the two conductors and the screening having joined the screening of the two new cables first.
Now I will pass on a little information that the main dealer said to me about fitting the new CKP sensor.
Be carful when fitting the sensor an O-ring is fitted to the sensor and on some vehicles it is a tight fit into the sensor aperture, make sure you lubricate the O-ring with a little engine oil and push the sensor home squarely. Keep feeling that the bracket that the screw locates in to hold the sensor in place is down to meet the bell housing DONOT try to use the screw to pull the sensor into position. Using the screw to pull the sensor in to position only distorts the plastic bracket the sensor is held proud of its correct position by the Oring yet the screw is tight. You may still have a running problem or a none starter, but you believe you have just replaced all parts with new so again looking for the problem elsewhere.
Hope this helps anyone.
Originally I had planned to use -http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/single-core-dual-screened-cable-priced-per-metre-xs24b cable and run two wires but felt the overall diameter was too large and would put a strain on the connector on the CKP so decided to still run two cables but using http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/audio-single-screened-low-noise-cable-black-priced-per-metre-xr16s.
I stripped back aprox 40mm of the outer shield leaving the center conductor insulated. Exposing aprox 6mm of the centre conductor on two pieces of the cable to connect to the plug connectors I made the connectors off and then preceded to join the braded screening on both together. Then made good the screening by using insulating shrink tube. The CKP socket is now completed, just to add because the cable colours do not match the original I put a collar on each end with coloured tape to identify which conductor was which when I come to connect up at the ECU.
I fed the cable through a length of 1/2 inch convoluted plastic tube to protect then under the vehicle (tucking this well out of the way and securing with zip straps to the original harness). The grommet that the original harness enter the under drivers seat box has a takeoff point that is not used so I utilised this for the new CKP sensor wiring and then snipped off the original cable from the red plug at the ECU, leaving aprox 75mm of the original cable to be able to strip tin and solder the joints to the new cable (remembering to first slide on some shrink insulating tube to make good the joint after soldering).
I made off three wires the two conductors and the screening having joined the screening of the two new cables first.
Now I will pass on a little information that the main dealer said to me about fitting the new CKP sensor.
Be carful when fitting the sensor an O-ring is fitted to the sensor and on some vehicles it is a tight fit into the sensor aperture, make sure you lubricate the O-ring with a little engine oil and push the sensor home squarely. Keep feeling that the bracket that the screw locates in to hold the sensor in place is down to meet the bell housing DONOT try to use the screw to pull the sensor into position. Using the screw to pull the sensor in to position only distorts the plastic bracket the sensor is held proud of its correct position by the Oring yet the screw is tight. You may still have a running problem or a none starter, but you believe you have just replaced all parts with new so again looking for the problem elsewhere.
Hope this helps anyone.
raywin
Well-Known Member
A long and difficult day yesterday, I have a lousy cold and felt rough. This is a job for the summer, its hopeless trying to solder when your hand is shaking like an MFI wardrobe.
Starting from here, you can see the sensor wires center left of the picture
Soldered the conductors and covered with shrink sleeve
Wrap some tin foil around them and cover with another shrink sleeve
One more sleeve for good luck and that's it, took much longer than I expected.
Fit the plug then sleeve, and crimp a terminal on the screen
Back together as the light faded, purged the system twice while I put the tools away and then.....
Tried it it coughed a couple of times and then just spins over stone dead.
How I laughed.
As Brown mentioned I was aware that this may not be the cure, I have printed out the details of the ECU and today I will try to find the strength to pull the plug and test the CKP pins in the plug with my Fluke meter, if they are shorted it tells me the wiring is duff after the bit I changed, If I see the resistance of close to 1258 Ohms which is what I measured at the sensor then I will know the wire and sensor is good and I need to look elsewhere for the problem.
I am going to start looking for an ECU, seems to me even if that is not the problem now it may be wise to get one and store it warm and dry for the future.
Starting from here, you can see the sensor wires center left of the picture
Soldered the conductors and covered with shrink sleeve
Wrap some tin foil around them and cover with another shrink sleeve
One more sleeve for good luck and that's it, took much longer than I expected.
Fit the plug then sleeve, and crimp a terminal on the screen
Back together as the light faded, purged the system twice while I put the tools away and then.....
Tried it it coughed a couple of times and then just spins over stone dead.
How I laughed.
As Brown mentioned I was aware that this may not be the cure, I have printed out the details of the ECU and today I will try to find the strength to pull the plug and test the CKP pins in the plug with my Fluke meter, if they are shorted it tells me the wiring is duff after the bit I changed, If I see the resistance of close to 1258 Ohms which is what I measured at the sensor then I will know the wire and sensor is good and I need to look elsewhere for the problem.
I am going to start looking for an ECU, seems to me even if that is not the problem now it may be wise to get one and store it warm and dry for the future.
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raywin
Well-Known Member
Well I went out and braved the cold, put the battery on charge, then took out the sensor again, checked the connection polarity, it's OK put it back and made sure it was located correctly I.e. Fully down in the opening. Cleaned out the ECU plug (again)
Tried the engine and it started to clunk over rough as anything and smoking, checked the Nanocom and I have peak charge high and peak charge low for all 5 injectors, so my thoughts are injector loom or ECU.
Hate chucking bits at a problem with no real plan but I'm thinking of ordering a new loom.
Any thoughts?
Tried the engine and it started to clunk over rough as anything and smoking, checked the Nanocom and I have peak charge high and peak charge low for all 5 injectors, so my thoughts are injector loom or ECU.
Hate chucking bits at a problem with no real plan but I'm thinking of ordering a new loom.
Any thoughts?
Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
If you use your Nanocom on RPM whilst cranking it over to start it should read aprox 200 RPM if so this shows the CKP and your new wiring is working.
Have you checked the fuel pressure at the regulator should be about 4bar.
raywin
Well-Known Member
Yes I turned it over with the Nanocom attached and the reading jumps up but then it begins to fire very unevenly and the readings jump about. Regarding fuel I don't have a gauge but I pulled off the return line from the fuel cooler at the fuel filter and the flow was pretty high, I have purged the system dozens of times and the pump is not whining at all but of course that doesn't mean the pressure is OK.
The error readings in the Nanocom make me feel that it is giving bad signals to the injectors, and I feel the hot favourite is the ECU.
Unfortunately it is a NNN000120 ECU which don't seem to be very common.
Wondered if anyone has used an ECU repair service ?
Saw one who want £250 to repair it but they give a lifetime warranty on the ECU.
raywin
Well-Known Member
I looked for the pin outs for the plug and I found this
So I looked for the connections and found them:
A13 = CKP sensor positive
A14 = Not used
A15 = Sensor Earth 5
A16 CKP Sensor screened Earth
So if I check the pins sensor + to sensor earth with the Fluke meter should see either:
very low resistance = short in cable
Resistance of the sensor = cables to the sensor and connections are good
My Plug
Not seeing A 15 here Measure between A13 and A16 and its open between A13 and earth wide open A 15 and earth wide open
I am no electrical expert but this seems odd.
Getting well fed up now.
So I looked for the connections and found them:
A13 = CKP sensor positive
A14 = Not used
A15 = Sensor Earth 5
A16 CKP Sensor screened Earth
So if I check the pins sensor + to sensor earth with the Fluke meter should see either:
very low resistance = short in cable
Resistance of the sensor = cables to the sensor and connections are good
My Plug
Not seeing A 15 here Measure between A13 and A16 and its open between A13 and earth wide open A 15 and earth wide open
I am no electrical expert but this seems odd.
Getting well fed up now.
Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
I looked for the pin outs for the plug and I found this
View attachment 112817
So I looked for the connections and found them:
A13 = CKP sensor positive
A14 = Not used
A15 = Sensor Earth 5
A16 CKP Sensor screened Earth
So if I check the pins sensor + to sensor earth with the Fluke meter should see either:
very low resistance = short in cable
Resistance of the sensor = cables to the sensor and connections are good
My Plug
Not seeing A 15 here Measure between A13 and A16 and its open between A13 and earth wide open A 15 and earth wide open
I am no electrical expert but this seems odd.
Getting well fed up now.
I believe your CKP sensor feeds are No13(KB Pink-Black)- No36(WU White Blue) -No16 the screening.
So to test the sensor resistance you should be looking at 13 and 16 --NOTE edited to read No 13 and No 36 not 13 and 16.
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raywin
Well-Known Member
Thanks Tim I will try again tomorrow,
Done quite a bit of googling and seen several cases of failed or chaffed cables. Makes no sense to trust instinct but I can't help feel the fault is in the cable, going to follow it and see if I can get the correct reading, but if not it's ECU decision time
Been offered brand new at £650 + vat
Craddocks is a bit less
Second hand ones on eBay seem to be arround £350 (unknown quantity)
Seen repair with unlimited guarantee at £250
I lean towards repair but you are in unknown territory would love to hear from anyone who has tried this route.
Tim4x4
Well-Known Member
not N013 and No16
raywin
Well-Known Member
Glad I saw that, been thinking about this and if I can't get a good reading tomorrow, I have a spare sensor plug and I've ordered a length of screened twin cable so I am going to make up a lead and couple the sensor direct to the ECU.
If that works then I will plumb in the new cable with some flexible conduit and make it permenant.
Well I can dream can't I.
If that works then I will plumb in the new cable with some flexible conduit and make it permenant.
Well I can dream can't I.
