Joe_H · Oct 4, 2016

GrumpyGel said:
I suppose the ultimate would be independent with huge articulation and wheel/hub motors - if you could protect them enough.

I actually have most of the parts to build a complete 4WD unmanned semi autonomous rover (a small one - about 1.5 mtr wheel base and 1.2 Mtr track - not the Rover car

) with active suspension and all the other toys. I have 4 independent very high torque motors (wheel chair motors with 90 degree angle drives and reduction units.) It has been a process of collecting parts for several years with a view to putting it all together one day. The idea is to have a fully articulated active suspension system individual and independent drive to each wheel. The motor units will be inboard with either shaft or small enclosed chain drive to each wheel. Wheels are from a mini quad bike.
With basic magnetometers, accelerometers, wheel speed sensors, torque (current in this case) sensors etc etc and a few powerful microprocessors the thing will one day be a reality. I am awaiting a cost effective HD video transfer system with absolutely minimal lag - (1080p) - to watch on the large tv from indoors - I have IR cameras and plenty of go pro's etc. Also considering a thermal imaging unit. setting it off around the farm at night would be fascinating, especially in IR mode..
I always did want to experiment with motors driving each wheel independently. Now I have the chance. It would open up a huge range of possibilities. That should be able to rock crawl too - and where possible remain level.
That will actually- imo - be the future of vehicles with motors in the hubs of vehicles - probably fuel cell powered. We are going electric whatever happens me think. It is just a matter of time. It may not be in my lifetime but certainly will be for many here. I just have to build my own to experience the possibilities. Suspension is probably going to start with geared torsion springs (electronically adjusted) and adjustable pressure fluid dampers via a continuously variable restrictor valve on each 'leg'.. once the basic unit is built though it is ALL about computer control.
Braking is planned to be all electronic too..

GrumpyGel · Oct 4, 2016

Joe_H said:
I actually have most of the parts to build a complete 4WD unmanned semi autonomous rover (a small one - about 1.5 mtr wheel base and 1.2 Mtr track - not the Rover car ) with active suspension and all the other toys. I have 4 independent very high torque motors (wheel chair motors with 90 degree angle drives and reduction units.) It has been a process of collecting parts for several years with a view to putting it all together one day. The idea is to have a fully articulated active suspension system individual and independent drive to each wheel. The motor units will be inboard with either shaft or small enclosed chain drive to each wheel. Wheels are from a mini quad bike.
With basic magnetometers, accelerometers, wheel speed sensors, torque (current in this case) sensors etc etc and a few powerful microprocessors the thing will one day be a reality. I am awaiting a cost effective HD video transfer system with absolutely minimal lag - (1080p) - to watch on the large tv from indoors - I have IR cameras and plenty of go pro's etc. Also considering a thermal imaging unit. setting it off around the farm at night would be fascinating, especially in IR mode..
I always did want to experiment with motors driving each wheel independently. Now I have the chance. It would open up a huge range of possibilities. That should be able to rock crawl too - and where possible remain level.
That will actually- imo - be the future of vehicles with motors in the hubs of vehicles - probably fuel cell powered. We are going electric whatever happens me think. It is just a matter of time. It may not be in my lifetime but certainly will be for many here. I just have to build my own to experience the possibilities. Suspension is probably going to start with geared torsion springs (electronically adjusted) and adjustable pressure fluid dampers via a continuously variable restrictor valve on each 'leg'.. once the basic unit is built though it is ALL about computer control.
Braking is planned to be all electronic too..

Sounds like a lifetime's fun project! Presumably start with building the transmission, then on to the suspension, then on to the remote capabilities etc etc. Not happening overnight, but a great project that will consume many days and weeks

urbandekay · Oct 4, 2016

300bhp/ton said:
I'm sure you would and do. But they are hardly used for rock crawling..... and the like. If independent suspension is so capable, how come it just isn't used for things like rock crawling and serious off road use (outside of speed events?)

There may be many reasons why they are not used for that, cost alone and durability. Read my original comment and you will see I note that independent suspension is better in theory but like the Africar is not yet fully realised

Joe_H · Oct 4, 2016

GrumpyGel said:
Sounds like a lifetime's fun project! Presumably start with building the transmission, then on to the suspension, then on to the remote capabilities etc etc. Not happening overnight, but a great project that will consume many days and weeks

Exactly

. It will probably take many many years and will never really be finished. Just a constantly evolving platform.
I spend many hours when it is quiet at home with a notebook and pencil scribbling ideas down and then - where needed - testing ideas on the computer or a jury rig.
It is one of those projects that allows you to bring all your skills and ideas gleaned over (in my case nearly 60 years) together in one package. The electronics / processing side is simply fascinating with current equipment and I am extremely lucky to work in that field. It keeps the grey matter active too.
I have a Duplicator 4X 3d printer for developing some parts and making scale replicas of items I need producing. It really is one of those projects though that you 'know the part you need when you see it' - I am always looking out for items that can be put to a different use. It is amazing what you find. It is also amazing what you can get for free !.. I emailed every electric wheel chair manufacture in the UK and Europe (well it seemed that way ) - looking for ex demo or pre-used motor drives - eventually got 2 pairs (identical) from chairs that had to undergo a 'crash test' for some approval or other. Totally gratis and they even shipped them here for free. I was gob smacled> But, if you don't ask you don't get.

300bhp/ton · Oct 5, 2016

GrumpyGel said:
I don't think hardly any owners of any vehicle take them to the full limits of their capabilities Joe. Given their price tag, most Landies will start life as Fendalton Tractors, Remuera Tractors or even Chelsea Tractors - but even these people still want to know their cars have capabilities they can use a bit of at the weekend - so long as it doesn't scratch them.

I think people do use vehicles close to their limits. Such as the D3, RRS and even L322. Just not so much in the UK. But hit Google or YouTube and look at what they use them for in places like the USA, Australia and other parts of the world.

GrumpyGel said:
If you allow a lot of travel on independent suspension, the CVs will surely not last very long at all.

Maybe so, although with lots of travel, you'd hope a CV would be designed to handle it. Biggest limiting factor however is, for most independent setups, you'd need really long A arms for lots of travel. Which would make a vehicle very wide.

This is the only IFS vehicle of this type that I know of. But look how long the arms are. On something like an D3 sized vehicle intended for road use too, it would be impractical. And while this looks cool, I've not yet seen any footage to show it performing better (or as well) as the live axle vehicles.

And it still uses a live axle rear, which like with most Jap trucks, compensates for the lack of flex on the front.

gstuart · Oct 5, 2016

300bhp/ton said:
I think people do use vehicles close to their limits. Such as the D3, RRS and even L322. Just not so much in the UK. But hit Google or YouTube and look at what they use them for in places like the USA, Australia and other parts of the world.

Maybe so, although with lots of travel, you'd hope a CV would be designed to handle it. Biggest limiting factor however is, for most independent setups, you'd need really long A arms for lots of travel. Which would make a vehicle very wide.

This is the only IFS vehicle of this type that I know of. But look how long the arms are. On something like an D3 sized vehicle intended for road use too, it would be impractical. And while this looks cool, I've not yet seen any footage to show it performing better (or as well) as the live axle vehicles.

And it still uses a live axle rear, which like with most Jap trucks, compensates for the lack of flex on the front.

saw a fantastic u tube video of a guy taking a disco 4 on an expedition , very impressive

along with some others in the states doing rock crawling , can't believe sometimes in what they can achieve

a few years back when arb air lockers were used they were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread

how things have advanced since the series landy

GrumpyGel · Oct 5, 2016

300bhp/ton said:
.

That's not to far from what my Freelander looks like with the big plastic bumper taken off

Nodge68 · Oct 5, 2016

The point of things like the D3/4 RRS AND FFRR is to get its occupants to where they want to go with a decent amount of comfort.
It can do the rock crawling thing over modest terrain, but it'll never be a serious rock crawler. In the same way that a rock crawler will never be able to cruise silently at motorway speeds one minute and drive a flooded farm track the next.
For the purpose the large LRs are designed for, they are pretty hard to beat.

gstuart · Oct 5, 2016

Nodge68 said:
The point of things like the D3/4 RRS AND FFRR is to get its occupants to where they want to go with a decent amount of comfort.
It can do the rock crawling thing over modest terrain, but it'll never be a serious rock crawler. In the same way that a rock crawler will never be able to cruise silently at motorway speeds one minute and drive a flooded farm track the next.
For the purpose the large LRs are designed for, they are pretty hard to beat.

have seen over the years as i imagine ur good self has , where people modify there off roaders making it suitable for one thing and useless for another

this is the utube video of the stock disco 4 , think there's 3-4 videos , very impressive

Land Rover Discovery LR4 Ultimate Off Road Trial. Baboons Pass Lesotho, Southern Africa. Part-1

300bhp/ton · Oct 6, 2016

urbandekay said:
Again, that is a function of suspension travel, you don't see the problem arising with the 4 wheel drive 2cvs, why? Because they have plenty of suspension travel

Any chance you could post some pics of a 2cv cross axled or even flexing it's suspension? The vid above was fun, pointless and biased and didn't show any suspension flexing on either vehicle, as the terrain just wasn't that sort of terrain.

urbandekay · Oct 8, 2016

300bhp/ton said:
Any chance you could post some pics of a 2cv cross axled or even flexing it's suspension? The vid above was fun, pointless and biased and didn't show any suspension flexing on either vehicle, as the terrain just wasn't that sort of terrain.

I don't have any and note I was not citing those 2cvs as being good off road but merely to demonstrate that independent suspension need not be limited in axle travel. You have yet to produce any convincing argument why independent suspension is always worse than a beam axle

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