urbandekay
Active Member
Not so, on a 2 cv chassis.Probably put a 2CV body on a LR chassis - like a D-Lander
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had a read of that , something different
agree it seems the purchase of some form of diagnostic computer will be required as cars progress
think my freelander has enough electronics , would hate to try and trace a fault in something like the new range rover
but do think we've improved considerably compared to the old british leyland cars
maybe the self driving cars can also tell u how to fix them as well , lol
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
The D3 has the same axle articulation as the D1. It's something like 12 or 14 inches at each wheel. Plus you can raise the whole car up 50 mm from its standard hight by moving one lever. If the suspension feels the body has touched the ground, the ECU automatically raises it another 25mm. If the body is still touching the ground the suspension goes up another 25mm.
The only down side to the D3 is the amount of electronics involved.
The only down side to the D3 is the amount of electronics involved.
think by having the air suspension facility it increases the status of the disco, by being virtually unstoppable
imagine the disco 4 has around the same amount of electrics , know i wouldn't like to trace an electrical fault, lol
would adore to have a disco 4 if i had the money , also to maintain it as well , then book a tour to drive through europe , maybe one day before i'm too old
as long as i could take my dogs ,
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
think by having the air suspension facility it increases the status of the disco, by being virtually unstoppable
imagine the disco 4 has around the same amount of electrics , know i wouldn't like to trace an electrical fault, lol
would adore to have a disco 4 if i had the money , also to maintain it as well , then book a tour to drive through europe , maybe one day before i'm too old
as long as i could take my dogs ,
To be honest Gary. There are diagnosic tools for the D3 that make the Hawkeye look like a toy. This makes diagnostics on the D3 easy.
To be honest Gary. There are diagnosic tools for the D3 that make the Hawkeye look like a toy. This makes diagnostics on the D3 easy.
oh i bet , my middle brother is a mechanic and picked him up once from work and he showed me the massive diagnostics machines , on a wheeled stand , that i believe costs well over 10k , but know u don't have to spend that kind of money now for home diagnostics
does seems to be something u have to purchase now with modern cars
know it's a different subject but the same with boilers and how they've advanced , in having to buy more tools as boilers advanced
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
tbh, it's a complex question and an even more complex answer...
And I'll be honest and say I can't answer all of it. But I have been trying to figure it out.And yes indeed flex and travel play a part in it. But I believe it's more down to the mechanics of how these actions work.
For example with a live axle (Defender). As one wheel drops, it forces the opposite one to raise. This results in the body staying fairly level.
With independent suspension the wheels are not linked. But more importantly, when a wheel moves up, it usually moves the entire vehicle up as well. It's rare to see independent suspension with a wheel stuffed up in the arch. So when one wheel drops, the opposite one is more likely to lean the body over towards the dropping wheel.
It's really hard to explain in text. But just watch some YouTube videos of different types of vehicles and you'll see, anything with all independent suspension tends to have the body moving about a lot more and will be lifting wheels off the ground more so.
In this picture, note the front left corner of the vehicle is in a hole and whole body has lent over. Now while the picture doesn't show it, but I'm sure if you measured the wheel arch gap, it'd be the same for 3 of the wheels. With the rear right the only one drooping.
A live axle vehicle would behave completely differently.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
tbh, it's a complex question and an even more complex answer...
And yes indeed flex and travel play a part in it. But I believe it's more down to the mechanics of how these actions work.
For example with a live axle (Defender). As one wheel drops, it forces the opposite one to raise. This results in the body staying fairly level.
With independent suspension the wheels are not linked. But more importantly, when a wheel moves up, it usually moves the entire vehicle up as well. It's rare to see independent suspension with a wheel stuffed up in the arch. So when one wheel drops, the opposite one is more likely to lean the body over towards the dropping wheel.
It's really hard to explain in text. But just watch some YouTube videos of different types of vehicles and you'll see, anything with all independent suspension tends to have the body moving about a lot more and will be lifting wheels off the ground more so.
In this picture, note the front left corner of the vehicle is in a hole and whole body has lent over. Now while the picture doesn't show it, but I'm sure if you measured the wheel arch gap, it'd be the same for 3 of the wheels. With the rear right the only one drooping.
A live axle vehicle would behave completely differently.
The air sprung D3/4 and RR don't work in the same way as the coil sprung FL1/2 (pictured)
The air springs are cross linked. This makes the independent suspension act like a solid axle. Basically as the wheel on one axle goes into compression, the opposite wheel on that axle goes into extention. So in a cross axle situation, all wheels will remain on the floor. This gives the EAS a huge advantage over independent coil springs.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Yes the cross linked setup on those vehicles does make them different and extends their ability. However, I don't think it solves the fundamental issue that independent suspension will try and resist compression. It works well at speed, but for slow off road work, it'll raise the body up on the side trying to be compressed.
Again, just watch some YouTube vids of D3's and RRS' off roading. You'll see they still lift wheels often.
That said, it is conceivable, that with suitable ECU control, the vehicle could detect when a shock needs compressing and actually make it decompress, while inflating the opposite wheel. I don't believe this is currently possible, but certainly not beyond the realm of what could be achieved. For example, on a side slope, you could have the high side full decompressed, while the low side over inflated. Allowing the vehicle body to sit almost level. But then this would work with a live axle too.
Again, just watch some YouTube vids of D3's and RRS' off roading. You'll see they still lift wheels often.
That said, it is conceivable, that with suitable ECU control, the vehicle could detect when a shock needs compressing and actually make it decompress, while inflating the opposite wheel. I don't believe this is currently possible, but certainly not beyond the realm of what could be achieved. For example, on a side slope, you could have the high side full decompressed, while the low side over inflated. Allowing the vehicle body to sit almost level. But then this would work with a live axle too.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
The cross linked D3/4 RR EAS works best at normal ride hight. While at off road hight, the suspension can't drop is low as is necessary for all wheels to remain on the ground. It's good, but not as good as a live axle.
However on the road it's miles better for having independent suspension. So some ability has to be compromised somewhere.
However on the road it's miles better for having independent suspension. So some ability has to be compromised somewhere.
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
And that is the key really - what do you want the vehicle for ?
I dont personally think many - well, hardly any - freelander owners buy the vehicle a mainly off road use vehicle. In the same light, not many owners of any of the breed actually buy them for primarily off road use. Most are simply Chelsea tractors. Having a vehicle with excellent on road manners, comfort and performance along with excellent off road ability and performance is not really feasible or affordable.
If you want an off roader buy an UMM
They are simply a hoot to drive. Some of the military versions are in public hands now and they are simply awesome.
Slap my hand -
- it's a landy forum..
GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
wow, what super cars
I never knew there was such a 2CV 4x4 community. Those 4WD conversions and standard versions from the factory - with either a transfer box or a 2nd engine up the back
Super cool.They do look very very capable as well.
GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
I don't think hardly any owners of any vehicle take them to the full limits of their capabilities Joe. Given their price tag, most Landies will start life as Fendalton Tractors, Remuera Tractors or even Chelsea Tractors - but even these people still want to know their cars have capabilities they can use a bit of at the weekend - so long as it doesn't scratch them.And that is the key really - what do you want the vehicle for ?
I dont personally think many - well, hardly any - freelander owners buy the vehicle a mainly off road use vehicle. In the same light, not many owners of any of the breed actually buy them for primarily off road use. Most are simply Chelsea tractors. Having a vehicle with excellent on road manners, comfort and performance along with excellent off road ability and performance is not really feasible or affordable.
If you want an off roader buy an UMM
They are simply a hoot to drive. Some of the military versions are in public hands now and they are simply awesome.
Slap my hand -
I often wished LR would build a Jimny type/size car that was more affordable to the masses. Maybe after seeing the 2CV video and finding out some info on that - they should go even more lightweight than Jimny
urbandekay
Active Member
tbh, it's a complex question and an even more complex answer...
And yes indeed flex and travel play a part in it. But I believe it's more down to the mechanics of how these actions work.
For example with a live axle (Defender). As one wheel drops, it forces the opposite one to raise. This results in the body staying fairly level.
With independent suspension the wheels are not linked. But more importantly, when a wheel moves up, it usually moves the entire vehicle up as well. It's rare to see independent suspension with a wheel stuffed up in the arch. So when one wheel drops, the opposite one is more likely to lean the body over towards the dropping wheel.
It's really hard to explain in text. But just watch some YouTube videos of different types of vehicles and you'll see, anything with all independent suspension tends to have the body moving about a lot more and will be lifting wheels off the ground more so.
In this picture, note the front left corner of the vehicle is in a hole and whole body has lent over. Now while the picture doesn't show it, but I'm sure if you measured the wheel arch gap, it'd be the same for 3 of the wheels. With the rear right the only one drooping.
A live axle vehicle would behave completely differently.
Again, that is a function of suspension travel, you don't see the problem arising with the 4 wheel drive 2cvs, why? Because they have plenty of suspension travel
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
Miles better. Nope, a p38a Range Rover or D2 are both very good on the road. And plenty of live axel (rear) cars that handle fine on the road too.
300bhp/ton
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you would and do. But they are hardly used for rock crawling..... and the like. If independent suspension is so capable, how come it just isn't used for things like rock crawling and serious off road use (outside of speed events?)
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
Hi GG, I agree whole heartedlyI don't think hardly any owners of any vehicle take them to the full limits of their capabilities Joe. Given their price tag, most Landies will start life as Fendalton Tractors, Remuera Tractors or even Chelsea Tractors - but even these people still want to know their cars have capabilities they can use a bit of at the weekend - so long as it doesn't scratch them.
I often wished LR would build a Jimny type/size car that was more affordable to the masses. Maybe after seeing the 2CV video and finding out some info on that - they should go even more lightweight than Jimny
a Jimny size landy would be awesome - A willys size even. - I simply adore the willys jeep - there are many for sale here in mint condition but around 15 -20,000 euros !. I have driven almost new jimnys (on holidays years ago - we used to hire them for a fortnight) and they were simply excellent and great fun.
I looked at one here before we got the freelander and took it for a test drive -sadly it was not at all what I remembered. They do not seem to 'wear' well at all. A super following though.
There was an Indian version of a jeep that looked promising but turned out to be a bag of dog's dollop by all accounts.
If LR did one - as you say - smaller or even similar in size to the Jimny with mod cons in the way of traction control etc - and a reduction drive.. it would be awesome. They could even put a bl00dy VCU on it for me as since the Bell unit my freelander is a completely different vehicle. Night and day. Feels excellent to drive, no hint of wheel slip as before and feels completely free on the drive train. A true pleasure to drive now.
I found a willys on OLX but would life wouldnt be worth living if the Doris saw another addition to the fleeet.....
https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/jeep-willys-1959-IDzGKCJ.html#a43700a64c
I AM tempted though - it would be a nice toy...... I wonder what I could convince her she needs ?...........
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
My thoughts exactly. Too many parts to go wrong or get damaged on an independent setup. with modern control systems they could do anything suspension wise. I think the added complexity and expense to make an IS system reliable would really be the only real reason that live axles are still about.
