GrumpyGel said:
All this talk about increasing horse power. However, is it safe given the TD4 is renowned for having a weak crank shaft that is liable to simply snap in half?
Click to expand...

must admit I was concerned in the beginning with regards to the ron box as I wanted to increase the torque but not increasing the strain in the engine ,

agree with u , in that I wouldnt want to max the engine out but to improve the running of it , thus improving the mpg and also the life of the engine

we all know engines that are tuned to the limit don't last very long , mines just under 190,000 miles

after all it's a Land Rover and not designed for max mph , due to its gearing as well ,



nice that it has got rid of the flat spot, improved torque without any detriment to the engine
 
TD4_4x4 said:
I wonder if it's possible to use a diesel tuning box + a bespoke remap on a rolling road, without blowing the engine up?
Click to expand...

sorry asking a daft question but wouldn't they both try and fight against one another , as the box I assume changes the setting on the main ecu , so if there was another chip trying to do the same as the box wouldn't it not run ??
 
Nodge68 said:
The MAF compensation is good. It makes a big difference to my tired old MAF.
That reminds me, I must give my £25 Ebay MAF another go, now I've solved the misfiring issue.
+1 for the Synergy;)
Click to expand...

glad u got it sorted out , still got a Bosch maf on mine , setting number 2 as it's an auto and any higher and the auto box didn't like it for some reason
 
Alibro said:
I wonder how much better a Ron box or a Bluespark (approx £200) are than a multi box from TDI tuning (£80) or more to the point than Joe_H's MAF amp I linked to earlier (Approx £15).
Click to expand...

Mine is the Tdi tuning box for £80 and to be honest it's great. Power is up and no flatspots throughout the rev range. It pulls my 1500kg caravan without hesitation. The £80 module that's fitted is the old stock module and looking at their eBay advert they are nearly all gone. Their new module has more parameters and is priced similar to the Ron box £295

https://www.tdi-tuning.co.uk/
 
Last edited:
gstuart said:
glad u got it sorted out , still got a Bosch maf on mine , setting number 2 as it's an auto and any higher and the auto box didn't like it for some reason
Click to expand...

In what way didn't your auto not like it Gary?
I'm on setting 3 and my auto box is quite happy. I did have it on setting 6 for a bit. I found the box hunted between gears, often enough for it to be annoying. Power was awesome on setting 6, though fuel economy took a hit.
I'm currently happy with the way she runs but I still have a boost modulator to try. I'll sort my exhaust first however.
 
Nodge68 said:
In what way didn't your auto not like it Gary?
I'm on setting 3 and my auto box is quite happy. I did have it on setting 6 for a bit. I found the box hunted between gears, often enough for it to be annoying. Power was awesome on setting 6, though fuel economy took a hit.
I'm currently happy with the way she runs but I still have a boost modulator to try. I'll sort my exhaust first however.
Click to expand...
@gstuart has the same issue as me, go over setting 2 and it goes all lumpy.
The auto box was altered around MY2004 where they took the intermediate speed sensors out. If you have the later box you can play with all settings, earlier ones like mine are hit and miss.
Mike
 
Skinny Mike said:
@gstuart has the same issue as me, go over setting 2 and it goes all lumpy.
The auto box was altered around MY2004 where they took the intermediate speed sensors out. If you have the later box you can play with all settings, earlier ones like mine are hit and miss.
Mike
Click to expand...
@Nodge68
Sorry, that's probably over simplistic.
All jatco 506e boxes have intermediate speed sensors, wether fitter to LR Jag, VAG or mazda. Earlier models had issues with poor gear change, 1st to 2nd could be harsh and 3rd to 4th could be quite lumpy. They would also blow solenoids at around 80,000 miles. Mine did, and quite a few other have, has been reported on various forums including this one.
It was found that if the intermediate speed sensor was disabled, (if you look at your TCM and compare it to mine, some of the pins are not there) then the gear changes were smoother and this had the side effect that the solenoid didn't blow.
For whatever reason it didn't really affect the V6, with only a few reporting solenoid failure.
Sorry if you already know this, but thought I would clear it up for those reading this thread who don't.

Mike
 
Personally - for most people - just use the little circuit I posted for the MAF amplifier - it costs about 4 or 5 quid in parts and will do most if not all of what 90% of people want.
You could probably add a simple variable resistor (about 50 pence to the HP fuel sensor as well to 'tweak that' (I think it may be high to low V out though)
if so, you could probably use virtually the same circuit as the maf amp on the HPF sensor with less gain and in an inverted amplifier config. (boosting fuel pressure)
If I could see a plot for the VNT mod output it would also be fairly easy to tweak that to increase the boost. (effectively delay the time before the vanes go full bypass )
Most of it is not rocket science at all. Dont forget the ECU is already mapped internally for standard - so any external 'tweak' would follow the original map with a simple boost in fuelling. Yes, it is possible to refine thing a little and pay hundreds of quid.. but - ;) ... Suck it and see - stick the 5 quid maf amplifier on first and see what happens.
If someone sends me a td4 I will do some in depth testing lol :D

In the winter I will probably knock something together on an Arduino - slightly more control - the results from the simple analogue circuits can feed back into the settings for the Arduino.
Again though, mostly the simple analogue circuits should be fine.
Joe
 
Last edited:
gstuart said:
sorry asking a daft question but wouldn't they both try and fight against one another , as the box I assume changes the setting on the main ecu , so if there was another chip trying to do the same as the box wouldn't it not run ??
Click to expand...
I think I posted earlier on in the thread, that a tuning box and a remap do different things.

A remap will increase the duration the injector is open. As well maybe control boost and other things. Depending exactly on the map and what the ECU is able to control, e.g. some remaps of automatics may alter the shift points or duration.

The tuning boxes simply increase the pressure at the injector, so put more fuel in for the same opening.

A combination of both can offer advantages.

There is some info here:
http://www.tuning-diesels.co.uk/guides-faqs/
 
300bhp/ton said:
I think I posted earlier on in the thread, that a tuning box and a remap do different things.

A remap will increase the duration the injector is open. As well maybe control boost and other things. Depending exactly on the map and what the ECU is able to control, e.g. some remaps of automatics may alter the shift points or duration.

The tuning boxes simply increase the pressure at the injector, so put more fuel in for the same opening.

A combination of both can offer advantages.

There is some info here:
http://www.tuning-diesels.co.uk/guides-faqs/
Click to expand...

Sorry mate - totally and utterly UNTRUE. :(.. a quality remap can and does fully control fuelling, pressure AND timing - as well as smoke maps, startup maps - everything - as well as boost if on a VNT and the map is designed for it.
The add on 'tuning' (fudge) boxes are a fairly scattergun approach - they do nothing particularly well but offer a reasonable boost albeit with wasted fuel in most cases. Claims of increases in MPG are basically BS. MPG is controlled by the right foot.
A website SELLING AND PROMOTING their own gear will always use 'poetic license'. There is absolutely no way you would want or need to use one of these simple fudge units with a remap ! - unless the remap was bought off ebay for 20 quid..
IF someone wants a fudge box, then there are loads on ebay that do as good a job as the ridiculously expensive units. A case of too much disinformation - check around the forums for recommendations.
The TD4 has a completely ECU variable fuel pressure control system.
Joe :)
 
I won't deny what you are claiming. But are you able to expand on this, as in are you a remapper or do you have access to mapping tools? Or able to provide more info on how they work?

Usually companies with blatant lies don't last long, or get prosecuted, as the Synergy box has been around for ages, I would find it surprising if the FAQ is as you put it, completely untrue?
 
As with all product claims, there's often a degree of "artistic licence". Car manufacturers MPG claims are often wildly inaccurate. The MPG figures being obtained by simply not testing in the real world. They use rolling roads and fixed routines to give a guide of possible efficiency. In the real world, the tested figures are never obtained.
Tuning devices are no different to the vehicle manufacturers. The device will potentially increase MPG, but most users will find the reverse to be true.
My TD4 auto has picked up a tiny MPG gain with the Synergy set on 3. However with it set on 6, I lost an easy 5 MPG. So you can't have power and economy at the same time.
 
300bhp/ton said:
I won't deny what you are claiming. But are you able to expand on this, as in are you a remapper or do you have access to mapping tools? Or able to provide more info on how they work?

Usually companies with blatant lies don't last long, or get prosecuted, as the Synergy box has been around for ages, I would find it surprising if the FAQ is as you put it, completely untrue?
Click to expand...
If you understand how an ECU works and how a 'map' is used by the ecu, and also - for example - the multiple map system (for example 24 maps in an old L series DCU, then I can attempt to explain to you how a remap works. And yes, I have remapped systems both on a rolling road dyno and on the road from the passenger seat using real time data. I have used Weber Alpha and also Megasquirt systems. I also have experience of closed loop Lambda assisted mapping.
If you are not familiar with the standard model for an ECU then it would be difficult.
I also never mentioned 'blatent lies', I said 'poetic license'. If you read most 'fudge box' sellers sites they will tend to play down the remap and massively over-inflate costs of such, and also benefits.
Any knowledgeable re-map specialist would throw their hands in the air if the 'user' suggested adding a feedback circuit 'fudge box' on TOP of the remap.!. It is simply crazy.
I am not saying the 'fudge' boxes do not make a good difference, I am saying that they are a general compromise, they tend to be much more expensive than a very good quaulity remap and they are certainly not as optimised for your engine and usage. The fudge units will tend to waste fuel also as they cannot be optimised over the full range of usage. This is no problem to many users. If you wonder why I use the term 'fudge' unit or 'fudgers' it is simply because that is all they do, they trick (Fudge) the ecu into seeing a different reading from normal hence altering an output - some of the first units tricked the CTS, then the Air metering flap in the Motronic systems - and so it progressed. The modern fudgers are not too much more sophisticated. Anyone selling a fudger for the L series for example is simply selling a virtual copy of the EVRY mod which costs about £1.50 at most to do. Some so called 'digital units' have a crude mapping system built in for the fudge only which a good analogy would be a graphic equaliser preset selection on your ICE system. a knob to select various'curves' - slightly better than linear but not much.
I love experimenting with my L series. But !!! - I am working with Kris (a most respected expert in the field) at http://www.dieselpowered.co.uk/ to produce a map for my modified L series unit. I also have several ECUS so can replace the modified with existing one if I wanted to (for exmaple whislt tweaking the map - which Kris will happily do.)
I am also working on a multi map system that is switchable from Kris map to normal map etc - using a Micro controlled unit to replace the two on board eprom units.
So, yes I am - IMO - qualified to comment.
Joe
 
Last edited:
Joe_H said:
If you understand how an ECU works and how a 'map' is used by the ecu, and also - for example - the multiple map system (for example 24 maps in an old L series DCU, then I can attempt to explain to you how a remap works. And yes, I have remapped systems both on a rolling road dyno and on the road from the passenger seat using real time data. I have used Weber Alpha and also Megasquirt systems. I also have experience of closed loop Lamda assisted mapping.
If you are not familiar with the standard model for an ECU then it would be difficult.
I also never mentioned 'blatent lies', I said 'poetic license'. If you read most 'fudge box' sellers sites they will tend to play down the remap and massively over-inflate costs of such, and also benefits.
Any knowledgeable re-map specialist would throw their hands in the air if the 'user' suggested adding a feedback circuit 'fudge box' on TOP of the remap.!. It is simply crazy.
I am not saying the 'fudge' boxes do not make a good difference, I am saying that they are a general compromise, they tend to be much more expensive than a very good quaulity remap and they are certainly not as optimised for your engine and usage. The fudge units will tend to waste fuel also as they cannot be optimised over the full range of usage. This is no problem to many users. If you wonder why I use the term 'fudge' unit or 'fudgers' it is simply because that is all they do, they trick (Fudge) the ecu into seeing a different reading from normal hence altering an output - some of the first units tricked the CTS, then the Air metering flap in the Motronic systems - and so it progressed. The modern fudgers are not too much more sophisticated. Anyone selling a fudger for the L series for example is simply selling a virtual copy of the EVRY mod which costs about £1.50 at most to do. Some so called 'digital units' have a crude mapping system built in for the fudge only which a good analogy would be a graphic equaliser preset selection on your ICE system. a knob to select various'curves' - slightly better than linear but not much.
I love experimenting with my L series. But !!! - I am working with Kris (a most respected expert in the field) at http://www.dieselpowered.co.uk/ to produce a map for my modified L series unit. I also have several ECUS so can replace the modified with existing one if I wanted to (for exmaple whislt tweaking the map - which Kris will happily do.)
I am also working on a multi map system that is switchable from Kris map to normal map etc - using a Micro controlled unit to replace the two on board eprom units.
So, yes I am - IMO - qualified to comment.
Joe
Click to expand...
Agreed;)
 
Nodge68 said:
In what way didn't your auto not like it Gary?
I'm on setting 3 and my auto box is quite happy. I did have it on setting 6 for a bit. I found the box hunted between gears, often enough for it to be annoying. Power was awesome on setting 6, though fuel economy took a hit.
I'm currently happy with the way she runs but I still have a boost modulator to try. I'll sort my exhaust first however.
Click to expand...

over setting 2 it had the same problems as skinny did , but mines a 2002 , but the box has been updated before I owned it

it seemed to hang , like when when u stick ur foot down in each gear on a diesel there would be a point it won't go any more, if that makes sense , also from stand still if u booted it would sometimes get very bad gear changes , like a thump , thought it was the autobox, changed it back down to number 2 and it never done it again , that was 2 years ago ,

have got the maf switch off at the moment , with it on will smoke

also got one of the straight through stainless steel silencers on mine ,
 
thks for the interesting reading with regards to a tuning box and remap , abit mind boggling for me but a very good read non the less

thks again for taking the time
 
Skinny Mike said:
@gstuart has the same issue as me, go over setting 2 and it goes all lumpy.
The auto box was altered around MY2004 where they took the intermediate speed sensors out. If you have the later box you can play with all settings, earlier ones like mine are hit and miss.
Mike
Click to expand...

yep , also sometimes the autobox would thump between gears , changed it down to number 2 and been fine since , also like the gears would hold and not change , delayed so to speak

mines a 2002 but know the autobox was replaced before I owned it ,

has been at least 2 years with the ronbox set on 2 and maf compensation off, returning around 42mpg on a run

that's with ,
egr bypassed
straight through stainless steel silencer
silicone hoses fitted
oem air filter
bmw crankcase breather

serviced each and every year , all oils including autobox , diff, ird , engine, filter

on just under 190,000 miles
 
gstuart said:
thks for the interesting reading with regards to a tuning box and remap , abit mind boggling for me but a very good read non the less

thks again for taking the time
Click to expand...
Hi Mate, no worries, YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT in finding it mind boggling - that is the issue Stuart (Hope I got the name right at least lol :)
There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much misleading stuff out there it really is virtually impossible to decide what is right or wrong.

Seriously - If you have basic soldering skills, or has a buddy who has, before you spend vast amounts of dosh playing with my simple MAF Amplifier. it MAY be all you need and will cost you next to nothing.. the down side is you need to connect to a few cables and cut and insert into one. Nothing difficult or irreversible... but the reason most of the ridicouly expensive units are because of the plug and pray,,,,
For a few minutes work you can get around that.
Anyone who promises you the earth for nearly 300 quid in a little add on box is taking the wee wee. (or as we say in the UK - taking the **** !!!).. and,. you can build a similar and near identical performance unit for a few quid - providing you can cut and crimp a few wires. It will NOT be as 'GOOD' and that is a term I use VERY loosely !!!! - as the so called 'gains' are minuscule - but, it WILL work and deliver the goodies.
Again, so much misleading info and so much utter BS written and devised to totally confuse the potential purchaser. 'THEY' may include some data that is relevant - however, most is imply not and is an exercise in subterfuge to entice a buyer... I call it utter BS IMO- :rolleyes: - some - call it marketing ... :(

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Enjoyo_O
Joe
 
Joe_H said:
Hi Mate, no worries, YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT in finding it mind boggling - that is the issue Stuart (Hope I got the name right at least lol :)
There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much misleading stuff out there it really is virtually impossible to decide what is right or wrong.

Seriously - If you have basic soldering skills, or has a buddy who has, before you spend bast amounts of dosh play with my simple MAF Amplifier. it MAY be all you need and will cost you next to nothing.. the down side is you need to connect to a few cables and cut and insert into one. Nothing difficult or irreversible... but the reason most of the ridicouly expensive units are because of the plug and pray,,,,
For a few minutes work you can get around that.
Anyone who promises you the earth for nearly 300 quid in a little add on box is taking the wee wee... and,. you can build a similar and near identical performance unit for a few quid - providing you can cut and crimp a few wires. It will NOT be as 'GOOD' and that is a term I use VERY loosely !!!! - as the so called 'gains' are minuscule - but, it WILL work and deliver the goodies.
Again, so much misleading info and so much utter BS written and devised to totally confuse the potential purchaser. 'THEY' may include some data that is relevant - however, most is imply not and is an exercise in subterfuge to entice a buyer... I call it utter BS IMO- :rolleyes: - some - call it marketing ... :(

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Enjoyo_O
Joe
Click to expand...

cheers , it's gary , but don't worry been called worse, lol

fitted a synergy box around 4 years ago , is a very interesting idea of urs and wished I had known earlier :)

did find the owner , Ron , to be really honest in what it would and wouldn't do

if u had any problems he was just a phone call away , personally found the Ron box got rid of flat spots and made the landy go like a steam train , also improving the mpg , handy having the dashboard switch , to change it from power if u wished to tow etc, or economy for better mpg

know there are many on the market and agree some sales are claiming all sorts of thing

appreciated the write up, my brain hurts now ;):)
 
Wouldn't it be great if somebody bought 4 or 5 different boxes and tested them back to back so we can know if we are being robbed. Some boxes are over two hundred quid and some are well under One hundred.
What is the difference?
Are the expensive ones really that much better?
Joe says a home made MAF amp costing around a tenner will do 80% of what the most expensive kit will do so are we really paying big bucks for an empty box or is the big money in the last 20%?
And if the big money is in the last 20% then is it worth paying so much for them
At some stage I hope to be able to answer whether or not a simple MAF amp makes a difference or not but unless I buy a Ron box or one of the other units I won't have anything to compare it against.
 
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