Hello,

As part of my post MOT fail repairs, I've replaced every brakeline on my V6, all except for the 2 short master cylinder to ABS pump pipes.

Would it be of any interest to anyone here if I did a writeup of how I did it, what basic tools I used etc. ??

I'm talking about the copper pipe kits as seen on such places as Ebay, motor factors etc.

BTW, the car has now passed. The tester actually complemented me on the brakelines..

If yes... what sort of detail? blow-by-blow account and exact parts or just a general overview??

Bodge99

Certainly would be useful in the FAQ bit I'd have thought, but must be a labour of love to write up with good pics! Just make sure they're decent size pics not thumbnails- nothing worse than reading through a step by step and having to click and load each pic at a time....... sod the people looking at it on a phone- stop being lazy, get off the sofa/crapper and use a proper pooter!


Last time I did a brakepipe it was just rub the rust lump off to bare metal and paint.

I'd like to see that as I think a couple of mine may need changing for the next MOT.

Aye mate it could be very useful.Just cost me 250 to get it through 3 pipes needed replaced.

I'll be changing all my brakes pipes in the very near future, so yes I keen to see and hear how you went about it

My rear pipes were an advisory in Oct. Planning to do mine in a couple of months

Hello,

O.K. then.. I'll start writing thing up as and when I get a little time.. I get the point about small pictures etc.. Would a PDF be better??

I've written a few similar style articles for other forums (fish tank rebuilds after glass damage, small microcontroller projects, valve radio tuning cord restringing etc.).

Every forum has slight differences in how things such as attached pictures are handled etc. Forum style also counts.

How about this.. I'll write something up, post it here for comment.. then I can make any changes (add things that anybody wants... etc.).

Sounds like a plan??

Any suggestions welcome.

Bodge99.

I may be in a minority here but I wouldn`t use copper for brake line replacement.
There are reports of it fracturing.

When I replaced the pipes on my Golf Gti I used Kunifer 8 which I believe is Cupro nickel.
Anyway i had to cadge a heavier duty flaring tool to make the flares.

I also wonder what would happen in an accident where the copper pipe had failed.
Manufacturers seem to all fit steel as standard even if its mainly down to cost and stiffness and less need for extra supports.

Copper would surely be regarded by insurance companies as non standard.

I would be interested in the views of others on this.

Hello,

This is actually an old argument.. certainly valid to query it at least.

I've used copper for replacement purposes on quite a few cars over the years. I've never had a failure. Those failures that I have seen were due to one of four things..

Brake nut/flair fluid leakage... Copper has different physical characteristics to steel.. The joints do need to be "fettled in" over a couple of days.. Once I've done this, I've never had a further problem. I'll cover this specific point in the writeup.

Flare failure.. In every case that I've seen, this appeared to be caused by overtightening of the brake pipe nuts, sometimes with the wrong nut used (flat ended nut used when a shouldered one should have been used.).

The third failure mechanism involves insufficient pipe support. Specifically too long a span of pipe was left unsupported.. The existing broken pipe clips were not replaced.
I'm of the opinion that the existing pipe clip spacing on a Freelander is sufficient for use with copper. You could always add extra for "piece of mind" purposes.

The fourth failure mechanism is a longer term one caused by corrosion. In these cases, it was specifically caused by the pipe being in physical contact with bodywork. The iron/copper/salt and water interaction over time caused problems. Copper Pipes routed so they cannot do this are the solution to this.

Copper/nickel pipes are stronger but may need a more "robust" flairing tool than the one I used.

I've spoken to a couple of insurance companies about this very thing.. Their "take" on it is that as long as the pipework meets MOT standards, then they are happy. After all, it's not unheard of that a rusted steel pipe can fail in service... An accident in these circumstances could result in a payout problem due to "poor quality general maintenance".

Whilst removing my old pipes, I was amazed to see how poor the overall condition of certain sections of them was.. I was expecting the pipes to be knackered in exposed areas (the long runs, front to rear, at and near the flexible pipe connections and the pigtails [rear flexible to cylinder short lengths]). I was quite surprised by the condition of the rear nearside one, where it passes across the body (above the rear silencer). This one is hard to inspect properly and was actually weeping. This specific weep was not picked up on the MOT... I don't blame the tester.. This guy is **** hot!. I had to remove the pipe section to actually see it.

My take on this... I'm very interested in other people's opinions/experiences...

Bodge99

Thanks for taking the time to type all that post Bodge.
Excellent reply to my points.

I'd be very interested in seeing a write up.

I also have been using Copper tubing for years and have never had a problem.
Provided the flares are done correctly and the bends preferably done with a bending tool, they will easily last the lifetime of the car. As stated, securing the pipework is an important fact as unsupported pipes will flex excessively. My local MOT tester told me of people just bending the pipework without using a bender, not straightening the pipe as it has been unravelled off the coil and even securing the pipes with cable ties instead of clips !!
Copper tube will easily withstand the maximum pressure exerted in modern ABS systems. The main reason steel (Bundy) tubing is used at manufacture is solely down to cost !!!

Hello,

I'm going to post the first draft of the first part of the writeup.. no pictures yet, I just wanted to get this started.

I'd welcome any comments and criticisms...

Would anyone like to see sections on overhauling the calipers and replacing the rear brake cylinders.??

Would something about the easybleed/bleeding procedure be useful as well??

I'll post more when I can.

Bodge99

*****This has been superceded.. See posts below this one.*****

First draft of the first part.. comments welcome.

Freelander brake pipe renewel - How I do it.

This is aimed at anyone who is looking to replace one or more of their brakelines. This is normally considered for MOT test reasons and to save money. I've tried to give information that will be of use to those who have little or no experience working on vehicle braking systems. Older and/or more experienced hands will probably be very familiar with all or most of this.

This is written after direct experience changing/overhauling everything on my V6 (after the ABS pump). For any non-LR readers, my 2001 Freelander V6 has front disks and rear brake drums. The braking system consists of a split hydraulic system (essentially two separate systems. The front offside caliper is on the same circuit as the rear nearside brake cylinder, similarly the front nearside caliper is on the same circuit as the rear offside cylinder.).
Brake pedal force is transferred to the ABS pump from the brake master cylinder/servo. From there, hydraulic force is applied to both brake circuits.

Overview: I'm happy using copper tubing to replace any part of a vehicle braking system. I have never had any problem with it - ever. I would suggest that anyone, who follows a few simple rules, will also have no problems.

Copper/nickel pipework is also available. This costs a little more than copper pipes do and is stronger. It is however slightly harder to work with and requires the use of a better quality flaring tool (for this, read as more expensive). Pro/semi-pro flairing tools are a joy to use and I would recommend the use of them if available. Most of them can also handle steel pipes if so required.

My rationale in using copper and the tools covered here are these:-

Copper is more than strong enough to withstand the hydraulic pressures that exist in modern braking systems.

I'm skint.

I've used copper several times before, with total success.
A properly installed copper system will outlast the life of the vehicle.

The flaring tool used here is perfectly adequate if used with care.

I've written this guide from the point of view having purchased rolls of copper brake pipe. It is also possible to purchase ready made lengths of copper lines.. Some motor factors will make up lengths to order.

What you'll need:-

2 rolls of copper pipe: (2 off 3/16" copper x 25')

Pipe flaring tool. See below.

Tape measure and a length of flex (or similar). Used to determine pipe lengths.

Brake pipe nuts: (10mm and 12mm) [10 off 10mm x 1mm, shouldered. 2 off 12mm x 1mm shouldered.]

Pipe cutter. I recommend the type shown here (see photo).

Pipe bending tool: Cheap and easily available. Usage covered below.

Two lengths of mdf or similar. Approx. 1 metre or so by 10cm wide. See photo. This is used to assist when unrolling the brake pipe. Ensure that one piece has a clean straight cut, smooth long edge. See photo.

Marking pen: Something like a Sharpie or a CD pen is fine. Used for marking the brake pipe.

Deburring tool. Proper deburring tools are available. I've always just used a 10mm flat bit.

Brake fluid. (never reuse the old stuff..)

Brake pipe spanners. These look like ring spanners, with a slot cut in the end. I have them, but have never needed to use them on new brake nuts. An open ended spanner is normally sufficient.

Brake bleeding equipment: I recommend a Gunson Easybleed (Eezibleed) [£15-£20]. One of the supplied pressure caps fits the Freelander fluid reservoir. This setup makes brake bleeding a simple one person job.

Spring hook puller: Useful for the rear brake lining springs, also in assisting pulling one of the brakepipes into its relevant clips. See later.
A motorbike spring hook puller (£3.50 on Ebay) is fine.

You **may** also need the following:-

Brake hose clamp: This is not required if changing all of the lines or just performing a full fluid change.

2 off rear brake cylinders: Look at the fixings on the existing brake backplate and how they relate to the position of the brake pipe. This will allow for easy visual identification of the type required. See below for a bleed nipple suggestion.

4 off M6 x 10mm stainless steel screws (Screws are threaded all of the way to the head, bolts are not.).
4 off 10mm stainless steel washers: Rear brake cylinder fixings.

1 off front caliper overhaul kit. If you decide to do this, get the kit that contains the slide pin rubbers. You may as well change them if overhauling the calipers. Don't just overhaul one caliper... do both!

4 off 10mm (15mm O.D.) copper sealing washers [For the front caliper flexible hose union]

2 off Front caliper bleed nipple.

2 off Front flexible brake hose. See below for discussion.
2 off Rear flexible brake hose. See below for discussion.

6 off Brake hose clips. You can probably reuse the existing ones.
Now might be the time to consider overhauling the brakes.. There is a good chance that the rear bleed nipples are seized solid.. if they are, then the rear brakenuts won't be far behind them.

Whatever you decide to do with the old brake cylinders, I recommend replacing the bleed nipples (even if new) with longer ones. This helps with access when bleeding the brakes.

more coming..

Bodge99

bodge99 said:

First draft of the first part.. comments welcome.

Freelander brake pipe renewel - How I do it.

This is aimed at anyone who is looking to replace one or more of their brakelines. This is normally considered for MOT test reasons and to save money. I've tried to give information that will be of use to those who have little or no experience working on vehicle braking systems. Older and/or more experienced hands will probably be very familiar with all or most of this.

This is written after direct experience changing/overhauling everything on my V6 (after the ABS pump). For any non-LR readers, my 2001 Freelander V6 has front disks and rear brake drums. The braking system consists of a split hydraulic system (essentially two separate systems. The front offside caliper is on the same circuit as the rear nearside brake cylinder, similarly the front nearside caliper is on the same circuit as the rear offside cylinder.).
Brake pedal force is transferred to the ABS pump from the brake master cylinder/servo. From there, hydraulic force is applied to both brake circuits.

Overview: I'm happy using copper tubing to replace any part of a vehicle braking system. I have never had any problem with it - ever. I would suggest that anyone, who follows a few simple rules, will also have no problems.

Copper/nickel pipework is also available. This costs a little more than copper pipes do and is stronger. It is however slightly harder to work with and requires the use of a better quality flaring tool (for this, read as more expensive). Pro/semi-pro flairing tools are a joy to use and I would recommend the use of them if available. Most of them can also handle steel pipes if so required.

My rationale in using copper and the tools covered here are these:-

Copper is more than strong enough to withstand the hydraulic pressures that exist in modern braking systems.

I'm skint.

I've used copper several times before, with total success.
A properly installed copper system will outlast the life of the vehicle.

The flaring tool used here is perfectly adequate if used with care.

I've written this guide from the point of view having purchased rolls of copper brake pipe. It is also possible to purchase ready made lengths of copper lines.. Some motor factors will make up lengths to order.

What you'll need:-

2 rolls of copper pipe: (2 off 3/16" copper x 25')

Pipe flaring tool. See below.

Tape measure and a length of flex (or similar). Used to determine pipe lengths.

Brake pipe nuts: (10mm and 12mm) [10 off 10mm x 1mm, shouldered. 2 off 12mm x 1mm shouldered.]

Pipe cutter. I recommend the type shown here (see photo).

Pipe bending tool: Cheap and easily available. Usage covered below.

Two lengths of mdf or similar. Approx. 1 metre or so by 10cm wide. See photo. This is used to assist when unrolling the brake pipe. Ensure that one piece has a clean straight cut, smooth long edge. See photo.

Marking pen: Something like a Sharpie or a CD pen is fine. Used for marking the brake pipe.

Deburring tool. Proper deburring tools are available. I've always just used a 10mm flat bit.

Brake fluid. (never reuse the old stuff..)

Brake pipe spanners. These look like ring spanners, with a slot cut in the end. I have them, but have never needed to use them on new brake nuts. An open ended spanner is normally sufficient.

Brake bleeding equipment: I recommend a Gunson Easybleed (Eezibleed) [£15-£20]. One of the supplied pressure caps fits the Freelander fluid reservoir. This setup makes brake bleeding a simple one person job.

Spring hook puller: Useful for the rear brake lining springs, also in assisting pulling one of the brakepipes into its relevant clips. See later.
A motorbike spring hook puller (£3.50 on Ebay) is fine.

You **may** also need the following:-

Brake hose clamp: This is not required if changing all of the lines or just performing a full fluid change.

2 off rear brake cylinders: Look at the fixings on the existing brake backplate and how they relate to the position of the brake pipe. This will allow for easy visual identification of the type required. See below for a bleed nipple suggestion.

4 off M6 x 10mm stainless steel screws (Screws are threaded all of the way to the head, bolts are not.).
4 off 10mm stainless steel washers: Rear brake cylinder fixings.

1 off front caliper overhaul kit. If you decide to do this, get the kit that contains the slide pin rubbers. You may as well change them if overhauling the calipers. Don't just overhaul one caliper... do both!

4 off 10mm (15mm O.D.) copper sealing washers [For the front caliper flexible hose union]

2 off Front caliper bleed nipple.

2 off Front flexible brake hose. See below for discussion.
2 off Rear flexible brake hose. See below for discussion.

6 off Brake hose clips. You can probably reuse the existing ones.
Now might be the time to consider overhauling the brakes.. There is a good chance that the rear bleed nipples are seized solid.. if they are, then the rear brakenuts won't be far behind them.

Whatever you decide to do with the old brake cylinders, I recommend replacing the bleed nipples (even if new) with longer ones. This helps with access when bleeding the brakes.

more coming..

Bodge99

Click to expand...

:behindsofa:

Good "Shopping list".......I fully agree with replacing the rear wheel cylinders as the chances are that the bleed nipples and brake pipe nuts will be badly corroded and seized in.
Personally, I would also replace the front caliper pistons and seals whilst I was at it.

Good luck with the write up...it has the makings of being a "Must read"

:clap2::clap2:

Two years ago my brake pipes were an advisory at MOT (dutch APK) at LR dealer.
Last year the inspector showed me the bad places and told me that next year the pipes will be gone. Yesterday I was in my local garage (not LR) for making an appoitment of MOT inspecton date next Friday. The FL was lifted as he read the advise of last year. The brake pipes are rubbish now.
And my FL Td4 is from 2003 (just eleven years) My previous car VW passat TDI diesel was 14 years when I sold it and there was no rust at all at the brake pipes.
This reminds me of an old dutch saying: British Elend (comes from British Leyland)
Did the guys of Landrover ever do any course of quality improvement?
Anyway the new brake pipies will be made of copper nickel.
An I am allowed to do a big part of the job. (andd save some money).

Hello,

While waiting to have my V6 retested, I was talking to a guy who had just had his Discovery fail on.. yes, you've guessed it... brake pipes. The thing was, he said that he had paid a lot of money to have two of these pipes replaced last year (at the main dealer).

12 months.. !! wow!

BTW, the next part of the initial draft coming soon.

bodge99 said:

Hello,

I'm going to post the first draft of the first part of the writeup.. no pictures yet, I just wanted to get this started.

I'd welcome any comments and criticisms...

Would anyone like to see sections on overhauling the calipers and replacing the rear brake cylinders.??

Would something about the easybleed/bleeding procedure be useful as well??

I'll post more when I can.

Bodge99

Click to expand...

I think that would be really helpful to a lot of folk.

Hello All,

Please see the next two posts.. These are as far as I've got to today.
Still no pictures yet. (some taken, but not yet sorted out).

As this one is getting quite large, I've split it into two parts.

Section one and two just about finished. I've started on the next section, but it's not really presentable yet.

Comments would be appreciated.

Bodge99.

Part 1. Work in progress.. comments welcome.

Freelander brake pipe renewel - How I do it.

Contents:

1. Overview and shopping list. Includes the tools that I used and some general recommendations.
2. Guide to handling copper pipe. Unrolling, cutting and deburring. The use of the bending and flaring tools.
3. Pipe removal. Tips on measuring. Detailed description of pipe replacement procedure.
4. Front caliper overhaul.
5. Rear drum brake overhaul.
6. Brake bleeding procedure. Use of the Easybleed.

This is aimed at anyone who is looking to replace one or more of their brakelines. This is normally considered for MOT test reasons and to save money. I've tried to give information that will be of use to those who have little or no experience working on vehicle braking systems. Older and/or more experienced hands will probably be very familiar with all or most of this.

This is written after direct experience changing/overhauling everything on my V6 (after the ABS pump).
For any non-LR readers, my 2001 Freelander V6 has front disks and rear brake drums. The braking system consists of a typical split hydraulic system (essentially two separate systems. The front offside caliper is on the same circuit as the rear nearside brake cylinder, similarly the front nearside caliper is on the same circuit as the rear offside cylinder.).
Brake pedal force is transferred to the ABS pump from the brake master cylinder/servo. From there, hydraulic force is applied to both brake circuits.

SECTION 1.
Overview and shopping list. Includes the tools that I used and some general recommendations.

I'm happy using copper tubing to replace any part of a vehicle braking system. I have never had any problem with it - ever. I would suggest that anyone, who follows a few simple rules, will also have no problems.

Copper/nickel pipework is also available. This costs a little more than copper pipes do and is stronger. It is however slightly harder to work with and requires the use of a better quality flaring tool (for this, read as more expensive). Pro/semi-pro flaring tools are a joy to use and I would recommend the use of them if available. Most of them can also handle steel pipes if so required.

My rationale in using copper and the tools covered here are these:-

Copper is more than strong enough to withstand the hydraulic pressures that exist in modern braking systems.

I'm skint.

I've used copper several times before, with total success.

A properly installed copper system will outlast the life of the vehicle.

The flaring tool used here is perfectly adequate if used with care.


I've written this guide from the point of view having purchased rolls of copper brake pipe. It is also possible to purchase ready made lengths of copper lines.. Some motor factors will make up lengths to order.

What you'll need:-

2 rolls of copper pipe: (2 off 3/16" copper x 25')

Pipe flaring tool. See section 2.

Tape measure and a length of flex (or similar). Used to determine pipe lengths.

Brake pipe nuts: (10mm and 12mm) [10 off 10mm x 1mm, shouldered. 2 off 12mm x 1mm shouldered.]
(* Possible need for 2 further 10mm x 1mm brake pipe nuts. See * below.)

Pipe cutter. I recommend the type shown here (see photo).

Pipe bending tool: Cheap and easily available. Usage covered below.

Two lengths of mdf or similar: Approx. 1 metre or so by 10cm wide. This is used when unrolling the brake pipe. Ensure that one piece has a clean straight cut, smooth long edge. See photo.

Marking pen: Something like a Sharpie or a CD pen is fine. Used for marking the brake pipe.

Deburring tool: Proper deburring tools are available. I've always just used a 10mm flat bit.

Brake fluid: (never reuse the old stuff..) Check what is specified for use with your vehicle.

Brake pipe spanners: These look like ring spanners, with a slot cut in the end. I have them, but have never needed to use them on new brake nuts. An open ended spanner is normally sufficient.

Brake bleeding equipment: I recommend a Gunson Easybleed (Eezibleed) [£15-£20]. One of the supplied pressure caps fits the Freelander fluid reservoir. This setup makes brake bleeding a simple one person job.

Spring hook puller: Useful for the rear brake lining springs, also in assisting in pulling one of the brakepipes into its relevant clips. See later. A "motorbike spring hook puller" (£3.50 on Ebay) is fine.

You **may** also need the following:-

* 10mm x 1mm straight female/female connector. See Section 3 for discussion.

Brake hose clamp: This is not required if changing all of the lines or just performing a full fluid change.

2 off rear brake cylinders: Examine the fixings on the existing brake backplate and how they relate to the position of the brake pipe. This will allow for easy visual identification of the type required. See below for a bleed nipple suggestion.

4 off M6 x 10mm stainless steel screws: (Screws are threaded all of the way to the head, bolts are not.).
4 off 10mm stainless steel washers: Rear brake cylinder fixings.

1 off Front caliper overhaul kit: If you decide or need to do this, get the kit that contains the slide pin rubbers. You may as well change them if overhauling the calipers. Don't just overhaul one caliper... do both!

2 off Front caliper pistons: See discussion in the caliper overhaul section.

4 off 10mm (15mm O.D.) copper sealing washers: Used on the front caliper flexible hose union.

2 off Front caliper bleed nipple.

4 off Bleed nipple cap: Keeps the crud out.

2 off Front flexible brake hose: See below for discussion.
2 off Rear flexible brake hose: See below for discussion.

6 off Brake hose clips. You can probably reuse the existing ones.

Now might be the time to consider overhauling the brakes.. There is a good chance that the rear bleed nipples are seized solid.. if they are, then the rear brakenuts won't be far behind them.

Whatever you decide to do with the old brake cylinders, I recommend replacing the bleed nipples (even if new) with longer ones. This helps with access when bleeding the brakes.

Flexible Hoses: Examine these closely. Any signs of bulging, kinking or any visible hose deterioration then replace the hose. I tend to replace hoses in pairs.. If one if failing, then the other is probably not far behind.
When disconnecting the flexible hoses from the system, collect and examine the fluid from within the hose. Any black flecks seen in the fluid indicates that the hose is failing internally and must be replaced.