Part 2. Work in progress... comments welcome.

Section 2.
Guide to handling copper pipe. Unrolling, cutting and deburring. The use of the bending and flaring tools.

Whatever type of pipe you have purchased, you probably will have either two 25 foot coils or several smaller coils (if you have purchased lengths made up to order.). As with any type of brake pipe (including fully preformed steel lengths), proper handling is needed so that no damage occurs. Any metal object has physical limitations.. such things as copper and steel pipes will begin to work harden during the bending process.. Excessive "working" of any material will eventually cause failure. It is therefore prudent to keep any handling to a minimum.

Unrolling pipe: I recommend that you don't start unrolling lengths of pipe until you're actually ready to use it.
Firstly you will need some method of straightening the coils. I use the method described next. Take your two lengths of MDF (or similar) and either clamp them or screw them together leaving a small overlap (see photo). I normally place marks on it every 10cm or so (to help with pipe length measurement). Place the assembly on the ground. Ensure that you have sufficient room so that you can slide the straightened pipe along the ground.

Once you have determined the approximate length of your first section of pipe then remove the packaging from the copper coils. Now position and hold the coils at approximately 45 degrees to the clamped MDF edge. Hold the end of the pipe in the MDF junction with one hand and simply unroll the pipe "into" and along the straight edge. When you have reached the end of your length of wood simply slide the pipe sideways and repeat.. Measure and mark the pipe in preparation for cutting.

Pipe cutting: I recommend the use of the rotational type of pipe cutter. The more accurate the cut is, the better. This type of cutter gives good results. Place the cutter onto the pipe, with the cutting edge aligned to the (previously marked) cutting position. Ensure that the pipe lies between the cutter rollers. Tighten the adjustment screw until the cutting wheel grips the pipe slightly. Now rotate the cutter around the pipe a few times, tightening a little after every rotation or so. You will soon get the feel for doing this. I normally seal the end of the open pipe with a little tape if it is not going to be used immediately (keeps the crud out).

Deburring: I just use a 10mm (or so) flat wood bit. I normally do this just before I make the flare.
With the pipe pointing downwards (so that any swarf falls out of the pipe), insert the point of the flat bit into the pipe end. Press gently and rotate the bit so that the cutting edge removes the burr left from the pipe cutter. Remove the flat bit and tap the pipe end with the tool to ensure that anything loose falls out.

Use of the bending tool: See the photo sequence in conjunction with this section.
Open the tool. Place the pipe into the (normally smallest, or second smallest) groove, ensuring that it is positioned on the correct side of the guide stop. Now pull the handle forward, you will see the upper wheel rotating around the lower one. The angle of bend is indicated by the pointer. When complete, pull the handle fully back and remove the bender from the pipe.

The bending procedure is the easy bit. Knowing exactly where to bend and in what direction takes a little thought.
I've found it easier to measure to the center of any particular bend.. be it a 45 or 90 degree.. or whatever it actually is. The pipe bender will place the center of the bend at a different distance from the "start" of bend location. It has to, in this design, as the bend radius is fixed.
I have "calibrated" my bending tool in the following way: See the following photo sequence.

Select a reference point on the bender. You will use this reference point when locating the tool for all bends from now on (call this point "Ref").

Take an offcut of pipe and mark it about 10cm from the end with your sharpie (call this point "a"). Place the pipe into the bender with "a" aligned to "Ref". Bend the pipe until the 45 degree mark aligns with the rotation indicator. Open the tool and remove the pipe.
Now place a mark at the center of the bend (call this point "b"). Measure the distance between both "a" and "b" (along the actual pipe) and write it down. This is your offset for a 45 degree bend.

Replace the pipe into the bender exactly as it was earlier. Now continue to bend the pipe until a 90 degree bend is formed. As before, remove the pipe, mark the centre of the bend (call this point "c"). Measure the distance from "a" to "c". Write this figure down. This is your offset for a 90 degree bend.

If you wish to, you could generate offset measurements for (example) 30 and 60 degrees. I've found that it is sufficient to extrapolate approximate figures from these two.
My figures are these:

45 degrees - 48mm [[my actual figures to be entered here.. when I've found my notes]]
90 degrees - 68mm

Now as an example of how to place a 45 degree bend at a specific point on a length of pipe:

********* I've just noticed a minor mistake here (below). I'll correct this when I can.. sorry!! ********

Mark the pipe where the centre of the bend is required. Place a mark 48mm (use your offset measurement here) to the left of this mark (if using the pipe bender with the handles pointing to the left). Place the tool on the pipe with your bender "Ref" point aligned with the left hand mark.
Form the bend by rotating the operating handle until the angle marker aligns with the 45 degree mark. Remove tool.. Bend completed.

The next stage is to determine the relative position of any subsequent bends. Here I don't mean the distance from one bend to to next but the actual difference in 3D space.

Consider the following.

This is harder to describe and takes longer to read then it does to actually perform the task.
I've "laboured" the process somewhat... I've done this so it more accurately represents how you will be working on the pipe when fitting it to the car.

Take an offcut of pipe about 30cm long. Select one end of the pipe and mark it. This is your start point.

Now to form a 90 degree bend on a pipe with the centre of the bend at 10cm from the start:

Place a mark at 10cm from the start. Measure back (your previously measured offset for a 90 degree bend) and mark the pipe (call this point "A"). Place the tool with the "Ref" aligned to "A" and create the bend.

Now to create a second 90 degree bend a further 10cm along the pipe:

This time, create the bend so that it points to the "upper right", at 45 degrees. See photos.
Measure and mark the required position of the centre of the second bend. The center to be 10cm from the first. Measure back (the 90 degree offset measurement) and mark this point as before (call this point "B"). Place the tool on the pipe and align "Ref" with "B".

This time we want the bend formed in a different direction. Hold the pipe with the "start" pipe end pointing down and the first 90 degree bend uppermost. Position the pipe so that the far end is pointing away from you. Now rotate the bender around the pipe so that the proposed second bend will be formed at between 1 and 2 o'clock (45 degrees to the horizontal). Make the bend (after ensuring that the reference marks are still aligned). Remove tool. Job done.. well done! You are now nearly ready to start bending pipes...

Use of the flaring tool:

This is not the place to discuss the merits or otherwise of ISO flares.. Just how to use the flaring tool to make the required flares.
There are two types of flare used on the Freelander braking system. Both types are formed in exactly the same way. The first type is described below. The second type is formed in the same way but simply has a "dimple" in the end. See photos for clarification.
The connections to the ABS pump use the first type. All other connections use the second type.

I've seen discussions regarding the exact usage of this tool as it is often supplied without usage instructions.
I have experimented with offcuts and different techniques and I'm of the opinion that the described method gives the best results.

The toolset consists of a pipe clamp, a 2 piece screw-type 45 degree spreader and several flare dies.
The pipe clamp is suitable for pipes of various diameters, as are the flare dies. I used the smallest die in conjunction with the smallest pipe hole. Each of the dies has a small pin on the centre of the reverse side. This is used to locate the die onto the pipe end.

See photo sequence.

Make a flare:

As before, this is harder to describe and takes longer to read then it does to actually perform the task.

Take an offcut of pipe. Deburr the end. It is important that the end of the pipe is cut square. The overall accuracy of the flare depends on this.

The machined recess in each pipe hole of the clamp indicates the working side of the tool. The ridges seen inside the pipe holes are used to grip the pipe when the 2 wingnuts on the pipe clamp are tightened.

Slacken off the two wingnuts on the pipe clamp, enough so that the pipe can be inserted through the relevant hole. Push about 5mm or so above the level of the working surface, tighten the wingnuts slightly.. just enough to grip the pipe gently. Place the die (pin uppermost) onto the working surface, directly next to the pipe.
Now adjust the length of protruding pipe so that the length showing is **exactly** the same as the depth of the outer edge of the adjacent die. Fully tighten the two wing nuts, ensuring that both halves of the pipe clamp are exactly level.

You are now ready to produce a flare.

The clamp has a longer leg on one of the sides, this is to allow the tool to held in a vice. The use of one is helpful (initially, at least) but not essential.

Lubricate the dished surface of the die (the side with the pin) with a drop of brake fluid or silicon oil.

Place the die onto the protruding pipe end with the pin inserted into the pipe bore.
Unscrew the spreader fully. Now slide the legs of the spreader over the side of the clamp.
Rotate the spreader 90 degrees to an upright position and place it so the spreader tip is above the center of the die. Tighten the spreader center bolt, reducing the distance from the spreader tip to the die. Continue until the two meet (with light resistance).

Before proceeding, ensure that the locating edges at the bottom of the spreader legs are equally in contact with bottom of the pipe clamp. Rotate the whole spreader clockwise (looking down) as far as the spreader will go.
This ensures that the spreader is exactly centralised on the die, is perfectly vertical and cannot move during the flare forming process.

To create the basic flare, simply tighten the spreader bolt. As you wind the bolt down, the die will be forced down towards the clamp, so forming the copper flare. Continue until the die meets the clamp. The flare is formed underneath the dished underside of the die. Undo the spreader bolt and remove the die from the pipe. Immediately return the die to the storage case/tool box. This ensures that the die is not misplaced (how do I know this?...).

If the flare requires a "dimple" to be formed in the flair then simply retighten the spreader bolt. The act of forcing the tip into the pipe end produces this dimple. The diameter of the dimple depends on how far the tip is wound into the copper. Start small, undo and inspect. Comparision of this with one of the steel flares will show how far to go.
Unscrew and remove the spreader, loosen the 2 clamp wingnuts and remove the pipe. You have made your first flare.. Well done!

Examine and compare your new flare with an original steel one. As long as the flare and/or pipe is not distorted then all should be good.


more coming..

:behindsofa:

Don't forget to slip the tube nut-right way round on to the pipe before you flare it !!
If you have bent the pipe using the old one as a pattern the nut can't be fitted unless you cut off the lovely flare you have just made !!

Brilliant write up so far :clap2::clap2:

Irishrover:

Yep, you are correct as usual. I haven't quite got that far yet...
This will be specifically covered "when I get there".

Thanks for the feedback.

Bodge99

Hello all,

First part of section 3 next... I want to get this one up as "daughter from hell" is coming home for Christmas.

As before, any comments welcome.

Bodge99.

First part of section 3. This section is not yet complete.

Section 3.

Pipe removal. Tips on measuring. Recommended replacement technique. Detailed description of pipe replacement procedure.

You are nearly ready to start removing the old pipes from the car. Pipe removal and replacement will be described in five subsections :-

3.1) Preparation for removal. Measuring the lengths of the old pipes. My recommended replacement technique.
3.2) Front right (UK Front offside).
3.3) Front left (UK Front nearside).
3.4) Rear long runs (Both sides).
3.5) Rear pigtails.

3.1) Preparation for removal. Measuring the lengths of the old pipes. My recommended replacement technique.

If you are overhauling the front calipers then it might be an idea to eject the pistons, as far as is possible.

Refer to section 4. Front caliper overhaul. Remove the bottom guide pin bolts from both calipers. Pivot the caliper housing upwards and remove the pads and retaining clips. If reusing the pads, mark them (for refitting exactly the same way round as removed). Move them somewhere safe, so they cannot become contaminated. Place a drip tray or similar underneath to catch any lost brake fluid. Pump the brake pedel to expel the pistons. One will probably be ejected with the other nearly so.

When a particular pipe has been removed (either in one full length, or more likely, in several sections), determine the length of the pipe and write this figure down. Use your length of flex (or similar). Cut the flex to a convenient length (e.g. 50 or 100cm) and use this as a flexible "ruler" by holding the end of the flex at one pipe end and "running" the flex along the pipe and around each bend as required. Repeat until the total length has been determined. Don't forget the length of any previously cut off flare.

Before you actually start removing old pipes, I recommend that you remove the two pipes from the master cylinder/servo to the ABS pump (removal of these allows better access for the removal and/or installation of pipes). You will be reusing these pipes, so take care when removing them. Undo and slide the flare nuts away from the master cylinder/ABS pump. The pipes are a snug fit within the pipe clips so carefully remove them. Mark them as per removal location. Also take note of which pipe clip position the pipes are located in. The V6 layout is noted at the very end of this guide.

Examine the layout of the pipes on the top of the ABS pump. There is normally a label here, indicating which pipe is which.
If not, write down the layout. You will notice that one brake circuit (front offside and rear nearside) has different sized flare nuts (only at the ABS pump) than the other circuit (front nearside and rear offside). This is a safety feature which **MUST** be kept.

Recommended replacement technique:

You now need to decide exactly which replacement procedure you wish to use. You basically have two options:

Preform your pipes (as far as possible) to match the previously removed ones.. This allows the flares to be prepared in advance and the bends to be preformed.

I personally have tried this method. I don't really "get on with it", as the somewhat convoluted routes that the pipes take can cause significant problems when routing new pipe. The original pipes are obviously originally installed onto the chassis before anything else of significant size is.

I therefore use the following method. (Don't actually remove any pipes yet...)

Remove one of the front pipe runs (cutting into sections as necessary), noting the path taken by the pipe and the location of any pipe clips. Measure the overall pipe length and add approximately 20cm or so to the length. This may waste a certain amount of pipe. My logic here is that I can easily shorten a pipe by cutting it. It takes more work to lengthen it.

I then unroll and straighten the required length of pipe. I don't fit the flare nuts or make any flares until the pipe is in its final position.

It is possible in every pipe run (including the pigtails, to a lesser extent) to modify the path of the pipe to "take up" a little spare length. This can be useful as you then have the option of being able to shorten any pipe slightly and remake any flare as required. Don't bother trying to fully duplicate the exact path of the original pipes.. the bend radius of the steel pipes is much smaller than is possible with copper or copper/nickel pipes. As long as the pipes follow the general path of the originals, are properly supported, do not contact the bodywork and cannot chafe on **anything** then all will be well.

I select a "mid point" in the pipe run (actually the nearest convenient section. See the specific pipe sections below.). I then route, bend and fix the pipe, working from this mid point towards the pipe end.
When one half is completed, I return to the mid point and continue with the other half.

The flares can be formed at any convenient time.
Once you have decided on the position of the flare, cut the pipe 5mm longer than where you want the bottom of the flare to be. This gives sufficient material for the flare to be formed whilst keeping its final position as decided.

**IMPORTANT** Before you make the flare, ensure that you slide a flare nut onto the pipe (with the thread end pointing towards the pipe end). To stop the flare nut falling off or sliding away out of reach, use a little tape and locate the flare nut out of the way..

General procedure: Cut pipe, deburr, slide on flare nut, make the flare. Finally, connect up. See section X for specific tips ("fettling in"). Before tightening anything up, ensure that the pipe ends are "square on" to the specific joint. Avoid any sideways stress on the pipe ends. You will see exactly what I mean when you reach this point.

I replace the pipes in the order given above.
After the pigtails, the front offside is the shortest and easiest length to replace. I then replace the front nearside.
The two long front to rear lengths are replaced in one operation. These two pipes follow a close parallel path in the majority of the pipe runs.
The two pigtails are done last. These are actually slightly more "fiddly" as the two ends are relatively close together.

More later..

Fair play to you Bodge for taking a lot of time and tapping of the keys to put this guide together. Your work so far looks to be a very comprehensive guide in easy to understand language.
Thanks for the progress updates...makes a change from the "One post wonders".
Take your time...when it's done. it's done. It isn't a race against time !!!
raise:

^^^ Wot 'e said.

(and a bump too)

Irishrover said:

I also have been using Copper tubing for years and have never had a problem.
Provided the flares are done correctly and the bends preferably done with a bending tool, they will easily last the lifetime of the car. As stated, securing the pipework is an important fact as unsupported pipes will flex excessively. My local MOT tester told me of people just bending the pipework without using a bender, not straightening the pipe as it has been unravelled off the coil and even securing the pipes with cable ties instead of clips !!
Copper tube will easily withstand the maximum pressure exerted in modern ABS systems. The main reason steel (Bundy) tubing is used at manufacture is solely down to cost !!!

Click to expand...

you say you have been using copper pipe for years.but you have been using it to make a still to brew your own booze ffs.this is about brake lines john.:rofl:

gemsdad said:

you say you have been using copper pipe for years.but you have been using it to make a still to brew your own booze ffs.this is about brake lines john.:rofl:

Click to expand...

:behindsofa:

Well John, as a matter of fact, whilst living and working in Ireland I was asked if I could make a "Coil" out of either stainless steel or copper tube. I made one out of annealed copper and must admit that it looked the dogs bollix.
The guy that I made it for completed his "Project" and in return, paid me "In kind"....the two bottles of what I assumed to be Holy Water were very pleasant !!:beer2:
I made up a further coil as a spare for him. He never said what they were for and I never asked as I am a dimwit.
The "Water" made lousy tea though
Will have to meet up sometime for a taste of the "Loopy Juice" they sell round the corner from your place. :beer2::beer2::beer2::5bparty::5bparty:

Irishrover said:

:behindsofa:

Well John, as a matter of fact, whilst living and working in Ireland I was asked if I could make a "Coil" out of either stainless steel or copper tube. I made one out of annealed copper and must admit that it looked the dogs bollix.
The guy that I made it for completed his "Project" and in return, paid me "In kind"....the two bottles of what I assumed to be Holy Water were very pleasant !!:beer2:
I made up a further coil as a spare for him. He never said what they were for and I never asked as I am a dimwit.
The "Water" made lousy tea though
Will have to meet up sometime for a taste of the "Loopy Juice" they sell round the corner from your place. :beer2::beer2::beer2::5bparty::5bparty:

Click to expand...

john,i am shocked at you making a water cooling device,i really am.must have been for a fridge then as that is all i can think it could be used for.:scratching_chin:.i have tried that water you speak of,not nice is it.hic.anytime for the walk to the erm cafe,whenever your ready mate.

Hello all,

Hope that you all had a good Christmas.

I didn't ! (don't ask!).

Anyway, the following post contains the first draft of section 4. front caliper overhaul.

This one is based on a earlier post, so it might seem familiar.

As before, comments welcome.

Bodge99

First draft of this bit..

Section 4. Front caliper overhaul.

4.1) Removing the pistons:

If the calipers have not been overhauled recently, then expect them to be quite tight within the caliper bores.
The easiest way to remove them is to use the braking system itself to force the pistons out.

Remove the bottom slider pin bolts (the smaller bolt head size) from both calipers. Pivot the caliper housing upwards and remove the pads and retaining clips. If reusing the pads, mark them (for refitting exactly the same way round as removed). Move them somewhere safe, so they cannot become contaminated. Place a drip tray or similar underneath to catch any lost brake fluid. Now pump the brake pedel to expel the pistons. One will probably be ejected with the other nearly so.

Now undo the brake hose union, the caliper bolts and the remaining slider pins. Remove the units from the car and place onto the bench.

4.2) Tight Piston Removal:

If one of the pistons refuses to move much and is still tight then it is possible to **carefully** lever it out.
With care, it is possible to use two screwdrivers (or similar) in the dust seal slot, place them on opposite sides of the piston and lever against two small lengths of wood placed on the caliper body.. Be very careful here and take your time, you don't want to damage the piston.

Apply even, smooth force to both screwdrivers. You are forcing the piston out of a close tolerance bore, so it is important to keep the piston centralised. Uneven force will cause the piston to jam.
Increase the wood thickness as required to keep the leverage force optimal. (i.e. keep the screwdrivers as horizontal as possible, so maximising the leverage efficiency).

You could also apply a little pressure with something pushed through the brake union hole. I use a plastic rod. You don't want to damage the thread, union mating surface or the caliper bore. Again, be careful and take your time.

4.3) Caliper cleaning:

Clean the crud off. Fully remove the piston and the dust seal.

Now remove the fluid seal. A small hook tool or jewellers screwdriver is fine. Just be gentle. Now clean the bore and examine it closely for any damage. You will probably find it is perfectly OK. Now clean the piston. Slight corrosion can be removed with something like duraglit. Get every trace of crud off. Excessive pitting indicates that the piston should be changed. This does not apply to the area above the dust seal slot. This section does not enter the bore and remains above the fluid seal.

Clean **everything**, check and check again that the internals are spotless.

4.4) Reassembly:

Smear the bore with a little clean (new) brake fluid. Smear the new fluid seal as well and place it in its recess in the bore. Check that it is not twisted. Smear the piston with a little brake fluid and place it on the bench with the groove uppermost (like a cup).

Push the dust seal onto the piston and slide it down towards the bottom of the piston. Don't worry about locating it in the piston groove yet.

Pick up the piston and slide the rubber seal further down towards the bottom of the piston. You want the outer lip to be lower than the bottom of the piston.

Hold the caliper in one hand, the piston in the other and bring the piston towards the bore. Hold it just above the bore so that outer lip on the dust seal is close to the groove above the bore. Tilt the piston slightly so that a portion of the lip enters the groove.. now while slowly rotating the piston, return it to the upright position.

With a little luck, the outer lip will "pull into" the groove. You will probably have to attempt this several times until you get the "knack". You **WILL** end up swearing at it but you will get there in the end.
Now **gently** push the piston into the bore. You will feel resistance but don't force it. If it goes off centre initally and jams, remove it and start again. Push the piston fully into the bore. The dust seal inner lip should now locate into the groove in the piston.

You are now ready to refit. I use a little copper grease behind the pads and on the pad sliders. The overhaul kit will probably have some silicon grease with it. Lubricate the slider pins with this. Later calipers have two different lengths of slider pin. The longer one (with the plastic anti-rattle bit) goes in the lower caliper hole.

I've just removed the front o/s pipe on my Disco 1 and there is about a six inch length of insulation on the pipe where it goes through the inner wing.



Do I have to re-fit something similar onto the new copper pipe?

Chrisw8 said:

I've just removed the front o/s pipe on my Disco 1 and there is about a six inch length of insulation on the pipe where it goes through the inner wing.



Do I have to re-fit something similar onto the new copper pipe?

Click to expand...

no ,just ensure its secure and cant chafe

jamesmartin said:

no ,just ensure its secure and cant chafe

Click to expand...

james,should it not have a rubber bung in the wing to protect the pipe???

gemsdad

it goes through a BIG hole

Chrisw8 said:

gemsdad

it goes through a BIG hole

Click to expand...

ok,well use a BIG bung then..you could use one of thos solid ones that are put in the boot floor of cars.modify one of those.

Hello,

There is something similar on the Freelander V6 front nearside pipe. It does pass through a grommet in the inner wing (just the pipe, I mean). For most of the run, the pipe is enclosed within a dense foam like tube (i.e. from close to the ABS pump and right round the engine bay. It ends a few cm from the inner wing grommet).

What I did with mine is this.. When the pipe was removed, I cut the foam length part of the run into approx. 50cm lengths.. I could then remove the foam from the pipe sections for reuse.
The foam on mine was stuck, twisting it slightly along the lengths loosens it, allowing it to be slid off (with a little force).

I sprayed a little silicon oil inside the foam to aid fitting it to the new pipe.

I will be specifically covering this in the front nearside pipe section of the pipe replacement part of the writeup.

Bodge99

bodge99 said:

Hello,

There is something similar on the Freelander V6 front nearside pipe. It does pass through a grommet in the inner wing (just the pipe, I mean). For most of the run, the pipe is enclosed within a dense foam like tube (i.e. from close to the ABS pump and right round the engine bay. It ends a few cm from the inner wing grommet).

What I did with mine is this.. When the pipe was removed, I cut the foam length part of the run into approx. 50cm lengths.. I could then remove the foam from the pipe sections for reuse.
The foam on mine was stuck, twisting it slightly along the lengths loosens it, allowing it to be slid off (with a little force).

I sprayed a little silicon oil inside the foam to aid fitting it to the new pipe.

I will be specifically covering this in the front nearside pipe section of the pipe replacement part of the writeup.

Bodge99

Click to expand...

what about using those sponge type central heating pipe covers to protect the pipe as it goes through the wing??

Hello All..

We've been down with just about every bug that has been going around at the moment.

I'm currently starting to recover from flu.. not manflu.. but the real one which puts you to bed for a few days..

I'll get back to my write up when I can actually focus onto the screen.

Apologies for the delay.

Bodge99