Alibro
Well-Known Member
Will you need an adapter plate of some sort? And depending on the length of the input shaft will you need to machine the bell housing?
It was relatively simple for me with the EV conversion as I just made a solid coupler with help from Nodge.
That's one of the things I need to figure out.
Photos from today:-
With the engine just plonked onto the Jatco gearbox and the crank lined up with the gearbox input shaft, I can then see how far off the IRD to K series bracket is:-
so, it looks like the centre line of the V6 crank was 18 to 20mm higher and 4 or 5mm furthur forward in the engine bay than the K series 1.8.
However looking at the 1.8 in the engine bay I don't think that this will be a problem at all, other than that I'll have to modify the engine mount a bit.
Looking at distance of the block to the inner wing:-
There's only a couple of mm in it, but this depends on how much I have to machine off of the Jatco bell housing and how thick a conversion plate I have to make.
The V6 starter motor is going to interfere with one of the gearbox to head bolts though:-
Finally, the V6 flex plate fitted onto a K series:-
at least it doesn't hit anything, but there isn't really clearance for the sump to bolt to the bell housing.
So with one of the head to bell housing maybe gone I'm down to possibly only three bolts that can get into the block.
Next I need to drop the torque converter in and see how much bell housing would need to be cut down.
Photos from today:-
With the engine just plonked onto the Jatco gearbox and the crank lined up with the gearbox input shaft, I can then see how far off the IRD to K series bracket is:-
so, it looks like the centre line of the V6 crank was 18 to 20mm higher and 4 or 5mm furthur forward in the engine bay than the K series 1.8.
However looking at the 1.8 in the engine bay I don't think that this will be a problem at all, other than that I'll have to modify the engine mount a bit.
Looking at distance of the block to the inner wing:-
There's only a couple of mm in it, but this depends on how much I have to machine off of the Jatco bell housing and how thick a conversion plate I have to make.
The V6 starter motor is going to interfere with one of the gearbox to head bolts though:-
Finally, the V6 flex plate fitted onto a K series:-
at least it doesn't hit anything, but there isn't really clearance for the sump to bolt to the bell housing.
So with one of the head to bell housing maybe gone I'm down to possibly only three bolts that can get into the block.
Next I need to drop the torque converter in and see how much bell housing would need to be cut down.
I've been reading about how much end float the torque converter should have on the gearbox. Apparently this is called "setback". Basically we don't want the torque converter full pushed home on the splines when it's installed, but it should be pulled back a bit to allow the torque converter to expand it it gets hot. The Internet is suggesting 3.5 to 4mm which seems like a lot.
yes I'm a bit worried how I make a converter plate accurately enough that the centre of the crank lines up with the centre of the gearbox input shaft.
I'm almost tempted to not try and make the tolerances tight, but instead just wiggle it around to see the limits of movement and then torque the bolts down as near as what feels like in the the middle of any movement.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
When I was lining mine up, because of the solid shaft between the motor and gearbox it pretty much centred itself even before I spun the motor. Would it be possible for you to make up an alignment tool to do similar?
The gearbox end is simple as you just use an old clutch disk cut down but not sure how you would tie in the engine end.
There is a centre spigot on the torque converter:-
I could weld something to a normal manual flywheel (I have a spare) and get it machined to line up with the that centre spigot to line it up, but there is a fair but of play on the torque converter location into the gearbox, so that's a challenge.
I did some more "dimensioning" today.
This is the crank sensor trigger teeth on the torque convert viewed through the hole where the hall effect sensor goes:-
You can see that it isn't centred in the hole, and that confirms that the torque converter is designed to sit out of the gearbox about 3mm out from from the maximum insertion.
I spend some time measuring the how far below the mounting surface the torque converter bolt face is and how far into the bell housing the flex plates go.
The conclusion is that torque converter bolt face is about 7mm into the bell housing, with a V6 flexplate on a K 1.8 crank/block going about 3.5mm into the bellhousing, so if the K1.8 K series is lined up exactly with the Jatco bell housing that gives a torque converter setback of 3.5mm, which is perfect. So that means that if I want a 6mm thick adapter plate then I need to mill 6mm off of the torque converter.
Looking at a Rover 75 1.8 auto flexplate that protrudes further into the bellhousing (about 5.5mm) so that would need a 2mm spacer, or 4mm milled off and 6mm plate.
However I realised today that I have to use the V6 flex plate.
If I were to use the K1.8 flex plate, it's a smaller diameter and that would mean dropping the starter motor about 7mm. The way that it bolts to the bell housing is a bit complicated:-
but in the end it's irrelevant because where it currently is it only just clears the crank sensor trigger teeth:-
so that means that some of the bolts are going to be quite close to the starter ring so some of the holes in my adapter plate will be more like slots:-
still, a gaps a gap
The final hassle is that starter motor gear thing shoots out when the starter is operated, and it's going to hit the end of the cylinder head:-
so I'll have to clearance that a little.
So, I only really have one decision to make. Do I mill 6mm off the bell housing to give room for a 6mm adapter plate? or, do I not mill it but space the flexplate 6mm off of the end of the crank with some longer flywheel bolts and just move the engine over in the engine bay 6mm?
My feeling is that milling the bell housing is neater. It puts the engine in a stock position just maybe 18 to 20mm higher, which I can easily achieve by cutting 18 to 20mm off the engine mount. Moving the whole engine over would require a custom made engine mount and I'd have to relocate the air filter box over and mess about more with the exhaust.
This is the crank sensor trigger teeth on the torque convert viewed through the hole where the hall effect sensor goes:-
You can see that it isn't centred in the hole, and that confirms that the torque converter is designed to sit out of the gearbox about 3mm out from from the maximum insertion.
I spend some time measuring the how far below the mounting surface the torque converter bolt face is and how far into the bell housing the flex plates go.
The conclusion is that torque converter bolt face is about 7mm into the bell housing, with a V6 flexplate on a K 1.8 crank/block going about 3.5mm into the bellhousing, so if the K1.8 K series is lined up exactly with the Jatco bell housing that gives a torque converter setback of 3.5mm, which is perfect. So that means that if I want a 6mm thick adapter plate then I need to mill 6mm off of the torque converter.
Looking at a Rover 75 1.8 auto flexplate that protrudes further into the bellhousing (about 5.5mm) so that would need a 2mm spacer, or 4mm milled off and 6mm plate.
However I realised today that I have to use the V6 flex plate.
If I were to use the K1.8 flex plate, it's a smaller diameter and that would mean dropping the starter motor about 7mm. The way that it bolts to the bell housing is a bit complicated:-
but in the end it's irrelevant because where it currently is it only just clears the crank sensor trigger teeth:-
so that means that some of the bolts are going to be quite close to the starter ring so some of the holes in my adapter plate will be more like slots:-
still, a gaps a gap
The final hassle is that starter motor gear thing shoots out when the starter is operated, and it's going to hit the end of the cylinder head:-
so I'll have to clearance that a little.
So, I only really have one decision to make. Do I mill 6mm off the bell housing to give room for a 6mm adapter plate? or, do I not mill it but space the flexplate 6mm off of the end of the crank with some longer flywheel bolts and just move the engine over in the engine bay 6mm?
My feeling is that milling the bell housing is neater. It puts the engine in a stock position just maybe 18 to 20mm higher, which I can easily achieve by cutting 18 to 20mm off the engine mount. Moving the whole engine over would require a custom made engine mount and I'd have to relocate the air filter box over and mess about more with the exhaust.
that means that I didn't explain it very well.
1. V6 bell housing means a V6 starter motor and that means a V6 flex plate. Moving the starter isn't an option because the it's already as close to the torque converter as it can be.
2. The correct flexplate / torque converter / gearbox clearance means that if I want an adapter plate, I have to mill the thickness of the adapter plate off of the bell housing.
The good news is that the engine hardly changes position at all in the engine bay.
I think that's it.
1. V6 bell housing means a V6 starter motor and that means a V6 flex plate. Moving the starter isn't an option because the it's already as close to the torque converter as it can be.
2. The correct flexplate / torque converter / gearbox clearance means that if I want an adapter plate, I have to mill the thickness of the adapter plate off of the bell housing.
The good news is that the engine hardly changes position at all in the engine bay.
I think that's it.
Alibro
Well-Known Member
I'm with GG.Been trying to get my head around this, and I'm beginning to think that maybe I have a better chance of understanding the wiring in Ali's EV conversion
Only suggestion I can make is if you have mill the bell housing maybe take a little less off than you think. That way if you are right you will need to do it again which is a pain but if you are wrong you might save yourself the hassle of finding another gearbox.
I'm pretty sure I'm right. I assembled it yesterday with the flexplate. When I put the torque converter bolts in it pulled the torque converter up, back out of the transmission, perfectly centering the trigger wheel on the crank sensor centre line:-
I'm certain that this is how it's supposed to be.
Today I made some progress by welding centre bosses from a 1.8 flex plate onto a V6 flex plate, so here is a welded up V6 flex plate mounted to a K series:-
I also realised that I made a mistake about something.
The final drive ratio of a Freelander 1 is set by the gearbox, not the IRD. The differential is in the gearbox, and the front drive shafts are driven by the gearbox, not the IRD, although one of them does go through it.
Therefore, I'll have V6 gear ratios with a 1.8. It's not going to be a ball of fire pulling away from stationary nor a low ratio off road crawler either. Oh well.
I'm certain that this is how it's supposed to be.
Today I made some progress by welding centre bosses from a 1.8 flex plate onto a V6 flex plate, so here is a welded up V6 flex plate mounted to a K series:-
I also realised that I made a mistake about something.
The final drive ratio of a Freelander 1 is set by the gearbox, not the IRD. The differential is in the gearbox, and the front drive shafts are driven by the gearbox, not the IRD, although one of them does go through it.
Therefore, I'll have V6 gear ratios with a 1.8. It's not going to be a ball of fire pulling away from stationary nor a low ratio off road crawler either
. Oh well.
GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
On the manual gearbox, the final drive is within the gearbox and like joins the gearing output to the IRD splines (it sits between them).
I don't think your description is very accurate. The gearbox does not drive the drive shafts and the diff is in the IRD. The gearbox output drive the IRD. The IRD then distribute torque to the front drive shafts via its diff and the rear axle via its fixed gearing on the pickup of the gearbox output. The LH output shaft from the diff goes inside the shaft taking power from the gearbox and on exiting the IRD goes through the lower part of the gearbox where the drive shaft plugs into it.
On the PG1 gearbox when used in Rover cars, the gearbox does indeed contain a diff and will drive the drive shafts directly - there are no other components. On the Tomcat, I think it may even be a limited slip diff.
I don't think your description is very accurate. The gearbox does not drive the drive shafts and the diff is in the IRD. The gearbox output drive the IRD. The IRD then distribute torque to the front drive shafts via its diff and the rear axle via its fixed gearing on the pickup of the gearbox output. The LH output shaft from the diff goes inside the shaft taking power from the gearbox and on exiting the IRD goes through the lower part of the gearbox where the drive shaft plugs into it.
On the PG1 gearbox when used in Rover cars, the gearbox does indeed contain a diff and will drive the drive shafts directly - there are no other components. On the Tomcat, I think it may even be a limited slip diff.
GrumpyGel
Well-Known Member
It will be interesting to see how it performs. I would have thought a V6 would change up at lower RPMs, meaning you would kill performance.Therefore, I'll have V6 gear ratios with a 1.8. It's not going to be a ball of fire pulling away from stationary nor a low ratio off road crawler either
Looking at the data though...
The K red lines at 7,200rpm generating max hp at 5,600 and torque at 3,500 (VVC is higher).
The KV6 red lines at 6,500 generating max hp at 6,500 and torque at 4,000 (probably why it's so thirsty!).
They both will be expecting the same diff ratios (as they share the same IRD) and tyre sizes.
So, the box may change up at a lower RPM because the red line is lower, but then it needs to hold them longer to achieve maximum power.
So, normal service is resumed, I haven't the foggiest. But, it will be very interesting to see.
This week I spent a day with Ron at Reeds' Retro Motorworks in Whatstandwell.
1st job he cut the K series trigger wheel off of an old Rover 75 dual mass flywheel:-
Apparently it was quite hard to do because the hardness of the metal varied because it had been welded in places and also due to harmonics (vibrations).
1st job he cut the K series trigger wheel off of an old Rover 75 dual mass flywheel:-
Apparently it was quite hard to do because the hardness of the metal varied because it had been welded in places and also due to harmonics (vibrations).
