Hi guys,

I know I've only just registered here but I did that for a particular reason (obviously), I want to try to help a good friend of mine who is not PC Literate but is Extremely Impetuous LOL.

He, like me, is in his senior years and has always wanted a RR Vogue, despite being an ardent Merc fan. Well his impetuism has gotten to him again, and last night he told me he had put his car up for sale on AutoTr**** and he was going to get a Vogue, probably circa 2004.

I jumped in right away and asked, "what research have you done into the differences between models / spec / year to year around this time ? "None" was his reply.

I'm a Vectra owner and have come to appreciate how important it is to recognise the major changes between like for like models, on a year by year basis.

My own car was a half canbus model, whereas the following year the "full" canbus was implemented.

So, my question relates to the year 2004. Is there any specific drawback or benefit in looking at a model from this particular year, or is there little technical difference in the basic electronics from 2004 to 2005/6 ?

Apart from the electronics, are there any serious implications to engine/body/build specifications that he should be looking at as well ?

He has said that his "minimum" specs for the "new car" should include - automatic, diesel (or petrol with lpg conversion would be a BIG plus), beige seats with blue piping, side steps and parking sensors. Sat Nav would be ok but not essential due to the technology advances in this field since 2004.

There will probably be something else I've missed. BUT, you get the picture at least I hope. What should he be wary of for 2004 if anything, and what might he appreciate he has missed out on from a later year if he finds one ?

A lot being asked here I know, but it will hopefully get a new Vogue owner started off on the right foot.

Thanks in anticipation guys !!

Woody

Morning!!

Glad he has decided to stop playing with Mercs and to finally get a proper car - the Range Rover.

From 2002 -2005 three trim options were available as standard (if you had the cash you could go for an Autobiography!) the SE, HSE and the Vogue.

Both were available in Petrol with the BMW derived 4.4 V8 and the 3.0 TD6, the HSE was not fitted with Sat Nav, I don't think the seats had as many adjustments as the Vogue, but both came with parking sensors.

Side steps were not a standard fitment but were an option at build or available from aftermarket retailers.

From 2005/6 they changed to a different databus system for the Sat Nav which used a touchscreen system and a faster DVD based unit. A new engine line up emerged using the Jaguar AJ 4.4 V8 and a revised TD6 Diesel. In late 2005 the Supercharged 4.2 V8 was launched and the Vogue SE joined the trim line up. the later models are better in reliability but it is still a Range Rover!

I won't go beyond the 2006 model as I will run out of time and space!!

Biggest problems with the early models were the Front Diff and the Front Prop Shaft were not lined up plumb, and this put stress on the input splined coupler and would strip, oftentimes taking the rfont diff with it. the solution was to put a 'CV' type joint on the diff and shaft to take up any misalignment. Check to ensure this has been done.

The Early Diesels were mated to the GM5L40-E which sufered from sudden premature failure, something to do with the torque convertor would let go and drag ****e through the box trashing it - a search on here will drag up many threads discussing this issue.

All models of the L322 are automatics and fitted with Electronic Air Suspension (EAS), the air suspension bags don't last forever and have a life of around 7/8 years, they are expensive to replace with the front strut costing around £300 each....check these for signs of crazing or cracking where the bag folds over itself - leaks are not always evident.

An LPG converted V8 is slightly cheaper to run than the diesel by about 2p per mile (or so I have found) - but if the LPG system goes down, the cost to run on petrol til it is fixed will criple you - average 12-15mpg or up to 17-20 on a run can be had.

Best I have had on constant 60mph middle of the night run to west yorks up the M1 was 17.3mpg!!

The Body work on the earlier models are now starting to show signs of bubb;ing in the usualy places, wheel arches, bottom of tail gate, front edge of bonnet - you can get good ones with no signs, but they are not as body resistant as the P38.

The Range Rover is a proper diva and will throw spurious faults that are not actually a fault - I think it just misses being plugged into a computer every once in a while so throws a fault just waiting for you to plug it in and clear them.

Most common electrical niggles exisit around the EAS, ABS, and HDC systems - they share the same section of the CANBus and when one throws a wobbler - the others crash also, traced mine to a dicky ABS sensor....

They do eat batteries, and hate low voltages.

Coolant leaks are common, the Rads are a weak point, the expansion tank can suddenly get hairline cracks, the Electrically Heated Thermostats fail, the water pumps fall apart.

The HID Lighting system on the Vogue are prone to self levelling problems and ballasts going U/S which are expensive to fix.

Steering wheel adjustment motors break although there are methods to repair on the net, a new coloumn will set you back close to £1000...!!!

Rear Left Corner Leaks - right over the complex electronics bay tucked in that corner - the offical Land Rover cure was a Plastic bag to cover the electronics - I kid you not - a £70k car and the fix was a Plastic Bag with the Land Rover Logo on it!!!

BUT:

To drive they are sublime, off-road they rule, the power and refinemnt wafts you along with a sense of calm and comfort. They are big, brash and bullish (just like me!).

As with every car, you can get good ones and you can get bad ones - so choose wisely, a full service history is a must.

DIY Diagnostic devices are available costing from £200 (RSW All Comms) to £750 (BBS Faultmate Extreme) to allow you to diagnose your own faults.

The L322 Range Rovers from 2002 onwards are a technological minefield of complex electronics, databuses and multiple control units. So take heed, they are not a get in and go car, they will need maintainance, paitience and a deep pocket at times...but they are by far the best car in the world!!

Blimey Ant, your replies get longer and longer!

Datatek said:

Blimey Ant, your replies get longer and longer!

Click to expand...

But, they are of full great info!

Must have too much time on his hands lol

2.0_hippo said:

Must have too much time on his hands lol

Click to expand...

or practicing in case a book needs writing but and I say this honestly a damn good write up

Like that Ant, good description in hundreds of words. Why do you only use eleven at the end to describe the Lexus?

Saint.V8 said:

Morning!!

Glad he has decided to stop playing with Mercs and to finally get a proper car - the Range Rover.

From 2002 -2005 three trim options were available as standard (if you had the cash you could go for an Autobiography!) the SE, HSE and the Vogue.

Both were available in Petrol with the BMW derived 4.4 V8 and the 3.0 TD6, the HSE was not fitted with Sat Nav, I don't think the seats had as many adjustments as the Vogue, but both came with parking sensors.

Side steps were not a standard fitment but were an option at build or available from

From 2005/6 they changed to a different databus system for the Sat Nav which used a touchscreen system and a faster DVD based unit. A new engine line up emerged using the Jaguar AJ 4.4 V8 and a revised TD6 Diesel. In late 2005 the Supercharged 4.2 V8 was launched and the Vogue SE joined the trim line up. the later models are better in reliability but it is still a Range Rover!

I won't go beyond the 2006 model as I will run out of time and space!!

Biggest problems with the early models were the Front Diff and the Front Prop Shaft were not lined up plumb, and this put stress on the input splined coupler and would strip, oftentimes taking the rfont diff with it. the solution was to put a 'CV' type joint on the diff and shaft to take up any misalignment. Check to ensure this has been done.

The Early Diesels were mated to the GM5L40-E which sufered from sudden premature failure, something to do with the torque convertor would let go and drag ****e through the box trashing it - a search on here will drag up many threads discussing this issue.

All models of the L322 are automatics and fitted with Electronic Air Suspension (EAS), the air suspension bags don't last forever and have a life of around 7/8 years, they are expensive to replace with the front strut costing around £300 each....check these for signs of crazing or cracking where the bag folds over itself - leaks are not always evident.

An LPG converted V8 is slightly cheaper to run than the diesel by about 2p per mile (or so I have found) - but if the LPG system goes down, the cost to run on petrol til it is fixed will criple you - average 12-15mpg or up to 17-20 on a run can be had.

Best I have had on constant 60mph middle of the night run to west yorks up the M1 was 17.3mpg!!

The Body work on the earlier models are now starting to show signs of bubb;ing in the usualy places, wheel arches, bottom of tail gate, front edge of bonnet - you can get good ones with no signs, but they are not as body resistant as the P38.

The Range Rover is a proper diva and will throw spurious faults that are not actually a fault - I think it just misses being plugged into a computer every once in a while so throws a fault just waiting for you to plug it in and clear them.

Most common electrical niggles exisit around the EAS, ABS, and HDC systems - they share the same section of the CANBus and when one throws a wobbler - the others crash also, traced mine to a dicky ABS sensor....

They do eat batteries, and hate low voltages.

Coolant leaks are common, the Rads are a weak point, the expansion tank can suddenly get hairline cracks, the Electrically Heated Thermostats fail, the water pumps fall apart.

The HID Lighting system on the Vogue are prone to self levelling problems and ballasts going U/S which are expensive to fix.

Steering wheel adjustment motors break although there are methods to repair on the net, a new coloumn will set you back close to £1000...!!!

Rear Left Corner Leaks - right over the complex electronics bay tucked in that corner - the offical Land Rover cure was a Plastic bag to cover the electronics - I kid you not - a £70k car and the fix was a Plastic Bag with the Land Rover Logo on it!!!

BUT:

To drive they are sublime, off-road they rule, the power and refinemnt wafts you along with a sense of calm and comfort. They are big, brash and bullish (just like me!).

As with every car, you can get good ones and you can get bad ones - so choose wisely, a full service history is a must.

DIY Diagnostic devices are available costing from £200 (RSW All Comms) to £750 (BBS Faultmate Extreme) to allow you to diagnose your own faults.

The L322 Range Rovers from 2002 onwards are a technological minefield of complex electronics, databuses and multiple control units. So take heed, they are not a get in and go car, they will need maintainance, paitience and a deep pocket at times...but they are by far the best car in the world!!

Click to expand...

best write up ever.

You can see he doesn't work for JLR trying to shift metal. Far too much honesty.

West Slope Rover said:

But, they are of full great info!

Click to expand...

Very true

You all too kind - I was gonna keep going but the girlfriend had just got out of bed and come downstairs, she gave the 'Why haven't you done the washing up from last night?' look so I felt I had to curtail it short....

Aslong as it helps out...!!

Saint.V8 said:

You all too kind - I was gonna keep going but the girlfriend had just got out of bed and come downstairs, she gave the 'Why haven't you done the washing up from last night?' look so I felt I had to curtail it short....

Aslong as it helps out...!!

Click to expand...

Don't ever accuse me of being kind. It's ruins my image with the lefties.

wammers said:

Don't ever accuse me of being kind. It's ruins my image with the lefties.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you are over your holiday and back to normal Tony

Datatek said:

Sounds like you are over your holiday and back to normal Tony

Click to expand...

Yup

Very helpful write up squire. I'm also in the market for a vogue.
Always nice to know that my first car will have "Official" carrier bags to cover its brains!

OMG... Saint.V8 Ant, you are too kind.

I can't begin to thank you for this reply and for not only your advice and warning points, but also for your your time in writing what must be the most wide ranging and definitive response I have received so far via the LR/RR forums.

I hope the points raised don't serve to make him want to start "playing" a bit harder with his or his wife's Mercs, but I'm sure they will give him every opportunity to look out for the problem points on this age of vehicle, when he can find one that has the "mint" interior and exterior he is no doubt going to be searching for.

In any event, this does seem to be one of the "better" (if not the best) LR Forums for participation. As a Vx driver and forum user, I am used to seeing a "massive" response to most pleas for help, but this forum has certainly shown itself to not only have members who want to share / help / and get to know each other, but also more than a fair share of knowledge and experience to call upon.

As a last point, would you point any preferences to either the earlier BMW based version (from a mechanical or reliability perspective) or the later Ford (Jaguar) combinations ? I realise that a lot of manufacturers were introducing their "all electronic" systems and probably early teething problems, with the 2005/2006 implementation of a Full CanBus, so will be looking at potential problems in this area, but it's the performance / reliability of the different offerings that is of a lot of interest.

Cheers and thanks again

Woody

Landyzone is by far the best LR/RR forum - there are always plenty of people around most hours of the day to offer help support and the odd **** take...!!

Having owned 6 Range Rovers now, Landyzone has been indispensable in learning these vehicles and keeping them going when all you want to do is tear your hair out and burn it!

The 2002 -2005 models were more of a 'prototype' for the 2006 facelift with its better and more robust electricary - that is not to say the 2006-on is far from niggle free of course.

The 2002 -2005 models do benefit from being able to use the relatively cheap yet still fairly powerful RSW All Comms Diagnostic Software (about £200 delivered from the States) as it isn't compatible with the 2006 onwards models, where you will have to pay closer to £350 for the Hawkeye from Bearmach or if you have the cash - £750+ for the BBS Faultmate Extreme series. (not sure if BBS do the Nanocom for the L322 yet - if they do it will be around £375 or so).

The BMW parts and service items are coming down in price now and are ar more available from stockists than the Jag parts.

The Jag AJ Engine is reportedly more bullet proof and resiliant to missed service schedules, whereas the BMW engine is more of a diva and requires more diligent attention. That being said - miss a service interval on either engine at your peril, it will come back to haunt you!

The TD6 diesel engine is bullet proof pretty much, it is just a pity they mated to early models to the GM Box which was a major fail item - costly too at £2.5k to replace (slightly less to rebuild - but only if it can be depending on damage).

Prices for the TDV8 even the early ones from 2006/2007 hold a good premium, but well worth the extra cash.

If you go for an LPG V8 - remember the additional cost to have the LPG system serviced on top of the vehicle service, but you will only be paying 72-74p per litre....

So a brief summary:

• Go for the latest model you can afford
• Get a documented Full Servie History
• Examine all reciepts that you can
• Test drive it for a minimum of an hour or so - and check EVERYTHING
• Press every button, twiddle every knob, pull every lever - then do it again - then again - and one last time to make sure
• Get under it and check the front prop shaft and diff for the new CV modification (Picture attached)
• Take it on different road types - Fast Duals, Towns, Windy country and bumpy tracks to see how it feels and listen for bangs and clunks
• find a quiet spot and pull over - open the bonnet, the boot, the doors check everything everywhere, pull up the boot floor and check spare wheel well, check behind the side panels in the boot etc.
• Oh did I mention testing all the buttons and knobs - do it again to make sure !!!!

Don't buy the first one you see, test drive a fe wand make comparisons - never listen to wait the seller says about niggly faults - he only wants to shift it....

And finally the golden rule to buy Range Rovers - Never Ever buy one with faults unless you know what is involved in fixing it or what it will cost....

They are available for S/H Mondeo money - but have £70k car running costs -....

Ant, you have done it again, a top response and many thanks for your help.
All of your comments are going to be acted on where relevant in the final buying decision !
Hopefully my m8 will make the right decision and maybe even join this very friendly community when he becomes a RR driver
I suspect that there won't be much that anyone else will be able to add to this write up, but feel welcome to respond if you have a comment or 3
Thanks again
Woody

Woody - it's a pleasure...these vehicles are complex and I will wax lyrical about them all day and all night - There is nothing worse than buying the car of your dreams (like when I bought my First Rangie) then a fault pops up - your heart sinks, the pit of your stomach churns and you get that that 'oh feck' feeling....being well informed about the future purchase takes part of that feeling away, another part is relieved when you realise what fantastic people are abound on this forum who will offer help and advice to get you back on the road again - and the final relief is when it is back togethre and running sweet - until the next problem.

Rangies have a bad reputation - that is only because people only ever report the faults - they never go on and on about how brilliant they all are when they work and get you places no other vehicle will...

The best 4x4xfar - certainly
The most reliabe - certainly not, but then again many other marques aren't either!!

Ant.

Saint.V8 said:

Woody - it's a pleasure...these vehicles are complex and I will wax lyrical about them all day and all night - There is nothing worse than buying the car of your dreams (like when I bought my First Rangie) then a fault pops up - your heart sinks, the pit of your stomach churns and you get that that 'oh feck' feeling....being well informed about the future purchase takes part of that feeling away, another part is relieved when you realise what fantastic people are abound on this forum who will offer help and advice to get you back on the road again - and the final relief is when it is back togethre and running sweet - until the next problem.

Rangies have a bad reputation - that is only because people only ever report the faults - they never go on and on about how brilliant they all are when they work and get you places no other vehicle will...

The best 4x4xfar - certainly
The most reliabe - certainly not, but then again many other marques aren't either!!

Ant.

Click to expand...

Great write up Ant now need to do the same for the P38 and classic.
Regards
David