Barge Pilot
Member
Amen.
LincolnSteve
Well-Known Member
And anyway i'm slower than all of you. 
Stretch
Well-Known Member
Oh come on Steve - you're nearly done.And anyway i'm slower than all of you.
You are just one step away from realising you'd have been better off buying a G-Wagon or a Unimog!
(Nearly time for you to trade it in)
Barge Pilot
Member
Hi Stretch, how's the shed coming along? Or, for that matter, the other projects?
cheers
cheers
Stretch
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry to say I've only got tales of woe at the moment.
(There is a real danger this response will turn into a whinge-fest - I'll do my best not to lay it on too thick!)
Problem #1
Building materials - BLOODY HELL - the prices are still mental. I'm just waiting for things to settle down. At least there are more and more people advertising sheets of SPANO on Marktplaats. It is becoming available again but I expect it will be at least half a year before people are forced to discount from the silly prices to start shifting stock again.
If I can get material for a reasonable(ish) price then I'll crack on with the last bits of the shed and get the ventilation system fitted so I can weld (safely) again.
Problem #2
I was a customer of an energy supplier that has gone bust. A cubic meter of gas used to cost 19 cents - now it is 1 euro 80. In my uninsulated house it I expect I will need to find at least an extra 1.5K to make it through the winter without having a brass monkey ball problem. As a result I've been self filling a cavity wall with EPS beads...
...at the moment I've been calculating where dew points in (compositie) walls will occur: Figuring out how I can also add insulation on the inside walls so I can get away from having to pay for gas. I've had it with those fuel pirates! (Look at the annual cost of being connected - bloody Enexis then steal more "connection charges" the more you use) The only way forward is to go full-on American and get as off-grid as you can (IMHO)...
...most of my "car cash" is going to have to be spent on "freedom" from having to do things conventionally.
I'm become more and more "eco" every day. So hashtag stop buring stuff and all that is for me the only way to escape the stupidity of world wide energy market thievery.
[As an aside - I've discovered "eco concrete" - mixing in EPS beads to cement and casting my own window sills which are not only conveniently lightweight but also provide a bit of insulation around leaky window edges. As I'm also going to have to start with the all new air-tight building practices I've also got plans for a heat recovery ventiliation system (which of course will be home-made - because - really have you seen the price of those off the shelf solutions?)]
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So as you can see - massive automotive progress delays all round.
I'm just doing my best to avoid a situation where I have to start selling parts - robbing Peter to pay Paul - I am of course of a generation where I still believe I can have it all (!) - so that's what I'm trying to achieve at the moment
LincolnSteve
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about the situation. Good luck.
Stretch
Well-Known Member
I agree - I'm just one of the first to fall because of the poor state of my house!I think you're in a situation that many of us will be finding ourselves in soon
Heat recovery system sounds interesting - hope you can share your plans?
{Here in the Netherlands houses are sold with energy labels much like washing machines - I don't know if that is done in other countries but I suspect so - my house is rated as G - the lowest rating - which is essentially saying in winter you'll be warmer in a two hundred quid B&Q garden shed!}
Heat recovery idea so far is as follows:-
1) I have to insulate the house and turn it into an airtight box
You have to do this to give a heat recovery system the chance to work
2) I'll be routing insulated ventilation ducts through out the house.
At the moment the plan is to buy the metal ducting that is quite cheap and widely available and then build boxes around the ducts to hold insulation. This will be easiest in the eaves - so instead of having say eaves cupboards in the loft I'll have poo loads of insulation around ventilation pipes.
3) I intend to get carried away with cheap pressure sensors to measure if I get large pressure differences at the exits and entry points to the ventilation system in each room. (I'm a Dad so) I hate it when doors bang!
4) Noise is a real problem for old fashioned ventilation systems - for example airco on trains is so bad I have bought noise cancelling headphones.
I plan to be able to control fan speeds and control flow rates by introducing flaps within each section (this is going to be all based on estimations and "feelings" as I'm not going to have access to fancy computer simulation programs).
I will probably have to add in acoustic measures much like mufflers on exhaust systems so the ducting in the loft will be made in modular sections so I can add in changes if needed. I have an engineering background in acoustics and vibration so I know in principle where to look for trouble and to calculate my way towards solutions. I'm also keen to make a Helmholtz resonator since I learnt about it in University - this is a perfect excuse!
5) The main part of the heat recovery systems are essentially simple heat exchangers that look much like an (automotive) intercooler. You can buy these "intercoolers" (that have been made for the purpose of heat recovery systems) on ebay. You then just need to make an insulated box to go around them.
Put in a drain for condensation.
6) Get a three phase power supply installed
Here in NL a 220V three phase supply can be easily arranged. Apparently the three phase motors are more efficient than the single phase equivalents. They take up less space and are easier to control (speed-wise)
Whilst most off the shelf heat recovery systems seem to use a single motor with fans on either end of their rotating shafts I plan to use two independent three phase motors to enable control of the air coming in and going out of the system. Whilst I expect that I will do my best to make the house airtight I have a feeling it won't be perfect (!) so having the additional ability to fine tune fan speeds (whilst achieving the number of air changes per hour target - sorry I can't remember what that is today - google it if you need to) and stop any discrepancies in pressure and thus controling ventilation noise and banging doors...
...that's about as far as I have got at the moment.
As this thread will testify I have an uncanny ability to get distracted so I'm really doing my best to concentrate on the insulation at the moment.
When I get round to coming up with a system I'll be happy to be diverted on that tangent at a later date.
steve2286w
Well-Known Member
Good luck with plans, we have energy ratings over here too can’t imagine what you need to get to A
The shed has a super size roof for solar, I’m currently installing a 300w wind turbine to top up solar panels on our allotment site these also cheap. Is your situation suitable for either of these , looks like one side of your roof gets some sun
The shed has a super size roof for solar, I’m currently installing a 300w wind turbine to top up solar panels on our allotment site these also cheap. Is your situation suitable for either of these , looks like one side of your roof gets some sun
Yep. A single phase (1~) motor requires a start winding to initiate the rotation ( which costs money to produce / install / maintain, and takes power). This is usually disconnected when the motor is at about 75% of full RPM via centrifugal switch which also costs ). 1~ motors draw a more current than a similar HP rating 3~. Single phase motors are usually much larger than an equivalent rating 3 phase motor.
A 3~ motor run smoother, and self start because the 3 phase connection creates a rotating magnetic field in the motor windings. This rotating magnetic field imparts current in the rotor. This rotor current induces a magnetic field which reacts with the winding magnetic field and causes the rotor to rotate without the use of a start winding.
Stretch
Well-Known Member
It is a crazy scale here - current building regs will give you about a C label I think. I think it is daft to allow people to build such energy inefficient buildings if you've actually managed to come up with a plan to measure how energy efficient homes are - I think (much like the washing machines) you can now get A+ and A++ and A+++ categories. It is already "illegal" to connect gas supplies to new builds so they have to be electric heated - paying for that in a house with only C energy rated insulation isn't going to be funny (especially as the prices for electricity produced by windmills is fixed with the rising gas prices here!)
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As you say wind and solar has got to be an addition in the future. At the moment my shed sits in the shade of a really nice old ash tree. The frequent falling branches could indicate ash die back disease so there is (unfortunately) a possibility it will have to be turned into posh flooring...
...windmills have become a point of serious conflict in the Netherlands. One chap who allegedly sent threatening letters to conctractors asking them to consider their position in society got locked up without a trial for about six months last year. Despite the reputation of this country you really don't wanna "'uck with the man" here. Some people are really ****ed off with windmills here - I'm not sure I want to be the first to put one in his garden (!)
I have, however, been thinking about vertical low noise cylindrical windmill designs. Someone has actually beaten me to it - what I was thinking about has already been made for the ridges of apex roofs. That would have been ideal for my shed (if it was positioned slightly differently).
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Low noise solutions are probably going to be more and more important in the future. Already there are some countries who say you can't have heat pumps in rural areas (because there the background noise is lower they are more of an irritation than they would be in built up areas).
There sure is a lot of balancing to be done - people do object to "the look of" solar but I do think that and a huge load of ex-Nato submarine batteries could be in my future
steve2286w
Well-Known Member
Stretch
Well-Known Member
Oh disaster - I hope this isn't contagious.Oh **** my supplier Bulb just gone into administration
I must say compared with my experience, however, the UK authorities seem to be on the ball. Money paid to bulb by their customers seems like it is protected. [I lost 17 euros to my old energy supplier - can you imagine the trauma?] It looks like the government + administrators will keep the company running for now. If you are lucky they might get you through to the spring where you might find there are better deals to be had.
Suppliers here in NL are already promising better deals from April 2022 onwards.
Stretch
Well-Known Member
I have no experience what so ever of these systems. The bumph and the statistics do indeed often look rather impressive.
As you say there is a massive discrepancy between the claims and the real world performance I think I will (take notice of what you say and) adapt my design so I can measure the performance effectively.
I have a feeling - based on what people can buy - that ventilation ducts are installed in places where they also need to be insulated. So far my searches for parts / materials here in NL have not come up with any ventilation ducts that come insulated (apart for the ones that only meant to be positioned between the fan and the air supply point - and these are only insulated to try and stop condensation forming inside that first bit of ducting).
Whilst I hope that I manage to build my own efficient heat recovery system in a way I have little option but to carry on with this solution. I have to insulate. I have to make the building as air tight as possible. I have to add in some form of ventilation...
...stupid trickle vents in window frames are utter crap. In my experience they don't work. You still get mould. You're better off opening windows but then in winter you are losing heat, wasting money and are unable to use solutions like heat pumps.
As I say the way I look at it, is that I have little choice:- I need to formulate some sort of plan to keep heat in and yet be able to breathe the air in my air tight box!
In Land Rover terms my series 2a has a 3 MB diesel engine creating something like 60 hp (at a particular engine speed if I am lucky) this "statistic" then has to travel through a clutch, a gearbox, a transfer box, one or two propshafts, one or two differentials, rotate four huge heavy drum brakes, four steel wheels shod with huge side walled tyres. The "statistic" is reduced to such an amount that on most modern rolling roads you can't measure such a low output!
In the heat recovery system there are a lot of things to go wrong - that if I can measure - I can fix. The efficiency statistics / promises made by manufacturers could have an element of creative accounting and might only work (much like the Land Rover diesel engine statistic) under certain conditions. Adapting the system to get the best performance is going to be a geeky challenge that to be honest I will probably enjoy.
With today's gas prices if I can recover just 10% of the energy that's at least the difference between having a decent Christmas dinner and some welding consumables or not...
Stretch
Well-Known Member
Hey SteveOh **** my supplier Bulb just gone into administration
I thought I'd pass on an update about my energy supplier issues. It might help you - it might not
I was forced into a contract with Eneco until yesterday with a gas price of 1,80 euro per cubic meter. I'm now "allowed" to change [so thank you sir that's very kind of you - free market my arse] Eneco is one of the big three suppliers here in the Netherlands. I've just switched to one of the other big three suppliers as I really don't want to risk being in the situation where another company goes bust (I only lost about 17 euros last time but it could have been a lot worse).
Amazingly Essent are offering a gas price of 1.21 euro ish per cubic meter which is still bloody expensive but with a contract that I can terminate within a month it is probably going to save me a bit of cash. I was surprised to see about a 30% difference in variable contract rates between the big three.
My plan is to stick with the new supplier until I can get a better deal (but continue with the energy saving insulation plans of course)
I have no idea if you can find a similar difference in the UK but if you don't check you might miss out.
BikerB
Well-Known Member
They can work but they are mostly relatively low efficiency. The Hi airflow systems I had maintained before only have a maximum temperature recovery rate of about +2C or 4% max at the supply end.
These are simple fluid transfer systems to be fair and cover their running and maintenance costs and eventually capital costs.
The Thermal Wheel systems now appearing seem to be a lot more efficient but I not seen any solid numbers for them as yet from experience as we haven't tried them due to some inherent issues relevant to our application, just claims which seem quite high.
Stretch
Well-Known Member
Thanks for adding this information
Clarity request:-
Are you saying something like this? =>
Outside air temperature = 5 degrees C : Inside air temperature = 20 degrees C : Recovered air temperature coming out of my pipework will be about 7 degrees C?
I hope it won't be that bad
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Your post has at least awakend me to the strong likelihood that no matter how well a system might recover heat the air being pushed into my air tight box will be at a temperature lower than the original temperature inside the box.
I think I need to add in some form of heating function after the heat recovery.
It might seem obvious to you but until now I hadn't thought of that - so thanks again - your post has been a great help.
BikerB
Well-Known Member
The +2C figure I was talking about was from the heat recovery battery just before your main heating battery.
ie the incoming air is say 5C, the heat recovery system puts +2C to make it 7C and then your main battery brings it up to temperature 16C-20C
so it just saves your fuel for heating about 2C of the incoming air. For large industrial systems this is worthwhile doing because of the energy costs involved.
You can't take this info as read for every system, I am talking about large industrial tempered air systems which operate at LPHV which probably don't equate directly to house systems and only fluid transfer systems which are not particularly highly efficient, I doubt you would have a thermal wheel in a house either.
ie the incoming air is say 5C, the heat recovery system puts +2C to make it 7C and then your main battery brings it up to temperature 16C-20C
so it just saves your fuel for heating about 2C of the incoming air. For large industrial systems this is worthwhile doing because of the energy costs involved.
You can't take this info as read for every system, I am talking about large industrial tempered air systems which operate at LPHV which probably don't equate directly to house systems and only fluid transfer systems which are not particularly highly efficient, I doubt you would have a thermal wheel in a house either.
Stretch
Well-Known Member
Well I hope I manage to get something to work a bit better than that! In a domestic setting it would be like having an airco unit fighting with the heating - it would be like blowing air out of a fridge into your living space...The +2C figure I was talking about was from the heat recovery battery just before your main heating battery.
ie the incoming air is say 5C, the heat recovery system puts +2C to make it 7C and then your main battery brings it up to temperature 16C-20C
so it just saves your fuel for heating about 2C of the incoming air. For large industrial systems this is worthwhile doing because of the energy costs involved.
You can't take this info as read for every system, I am talking about large industrial tempered air systems which operate at LPHV which probably don't equate directly to house systems and only fluid transfer systems which are not particularly highly efficient, I doubt you would have a thermal wheel in a house either.
...having never experienced these systems myself I find it hard to see how anyone would be able to market these systems if they performed like that - still - more research needed.
6 "P"s again
Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance
(hopefully)
