Major Eazy

Major Eazy

Active Member
When looking to buy winter tyres, and while making a narrowed down list, by reading reviews and looking at the specifications of the tyre. Is the information about winter tyres based on top of ice and snow which in turn is only on top of the road? Could such tyres work fine if you were on top of snow which is on top of *any* ground?

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, so I'm going to have to try to see if I can explain better.

I have a Freelander, during spring to autumn, I would mainly and mostly drive on roads, but sometimes do very light off the road drive out in the countryside. Not the green lane kind or deep into woods, I meant like a layby (not the kind with a tarmac more like a muddy one), at a common, at a picnic site, car boot sale, places like that, etc. Actually I do photography and also I'm an amateur astronomer, so sometimes I need to drive off the road, over lumpy or muddy grounds, the Freelander is good enough for my needs as I'm not into serious off-roading.

Last winter, my Freelander with summer tyres did managed just fine on the snow, but was mostly on road. However I did have one or two tiny problems. So I have decided to go for snow tyres. I'm likely to be still driving on roads, but as a photographer, I would still need to go out in the countryside, get off road and park.

I'm just not clear. Are those winter tyres only meant for driving over snow on road, and not suited for off road even if under the snow is likely to be a lumpy ground, for example, roads out in the countryside that do not have sidewalks? Or can they manage fine a bit off the ground?

I would have assumed that the M+S (Mud and Snow) type of tyres were meant for if you're actually driving a bit further away from the road, like green lane routes, into woods, farmland, very soft blogged down grounds, etc, during snow, and more suited for Defender or Discovery.

Or am I wrong?
 
There are a lot of misconceptions regarding "winter tyres" and M+S markings.
First off, these days the M+S markings are little more than simply a marketing ploy.
Next, people talk about winter tyres when they're really thinking of cold climate tyres. It's little to do with the overall tread pattern, although many do have a slightly more aggressive looking tread. The main design criteria of low temperature tyres is the compound that they're made of. Cold climate tyres have small "cuts" in the tread called "sipes" which are designed to actually grip soft snow.
Low temperature or cold climate tyres remain pliable at lower temperatures than "ordinary" tyres, allowing them to work as predicted when the temperature falls below 7 degrees Celsius, not minus 7 degrees. The downside of using a softer compound is that it can wear quicker in higher temperatures and also their behaviour can degrade at higher temperatures too. In low temperatures they can perform better than ordinary tyres in wet conditions too.

Almost all tyres purchased in the UK will carry the M+S marking, it's just a way of indicating the kind and level of testing that the tyre was subjected to, but a cold climate tyre will be marked not only with the M+S but also the "three peaks and a snowflake" mark.
An extra set of tyres, with or without wheels is a not insignificant investment in rubber, and even though I run a set of cold climate tyres and ordinary tyres which I change over usually in November and May, I would say that for what you're talking about you might be better off going for an "All-season" tyre.
 
Summer tyres in snow/ice conditions is asking for trouble. Check out the many winter tyres vs summer tyres tests on YouTube for illustrations.

Tyre seasons have nothing to with a vehicle type, it is to do with the road conditions they are designed to cope with. Only full blown off-road tyres are not good on tarmac for any stretch. Summer, winter and m/s are designed for tarmac and (tread and manufacturer’s recommendation dependant) for light off road. In the UK you can run on m/s all year because the weather is moderate.

Here we run summer and winter tyres on the RR, but we swing from mid 30C to -20C with a metre plus of snow and 6 inches of ice on the roads (and by law we have to run m/s or winter tyres Nov-Mar) and on the Defender we run BFG All Terrain m/s all year but that is a chunkier tread, not a choice for purely on road due to the tread.

For the work that you described, M/S tyres should be fine. Nip to your local tyre place and chat with them.
 
brian47 said:
There are a lot of misconceptions regarding "winter tyres" and M+S markings.
First off, these days the M+S markings are little more than simply a marketing ploy.

Cold climate tyres have small "cuts" in the tread called "sipes" which are designed to actually grip soft snow.

I would say that for what you're talking about you might be better off going for an "All-season" tyre.
Click to expand...

Okay, so unless I misunderstand you, a winter tyre is a winter tyre for use on snow regardless of what is under the snow, and also regardless of the M+S markings? I assume by your pointing out that they "are designed to actually grip soft snow" mean winter tyres would work on and off road? Surely that the snow on top of a road is same as the snow on top of grass?

That right or wrong?

Do you really believe I would be better off with All-Season tyres? I should have mention I do some motorway travels too, but if motorway driving makes no different to All-Season tyres, then I'll accept your advice and look into it.
 
Major Eazy said:
When looking to buy winter tyres, and while making a narrowed down list, by reading reviews and looking at the specifications of the tyre. Is the information about winter tyres based on top of ice and snow which in turn is only on top of the road? Could such tyres work fine if you were on top of snow which is on top of *any* ground?

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, so I'm going to have to try to see if I can explain better.

I have a Freelander, during spring to autumn, I would mainly and mostly drive on roads, but sometimes do very light off the road drive out in the countryside. Not the green lane kind or deep into woods, I meant like a layby (not the kind with a tarmac more like a muddy one), at a common, at a picnic site, car boot sale, places like that, etc. Actually I do photography and also I'm an amateur astronomer, so sometimes I need to drive off the road, over lumpy or muddy grounds, the Freelander is good enough for my needs as I'm not into serious off-roading.

Last winter, my Freelander with summer tyres did managed just fine on the snow, but was mostly on road. However I did have one or two tiny problems. So I have decided to go for snow tyres. I'm likely to be still driving on roads, but as a photographer, I would still need to go out in the countryside, get off road and park.

I'm just not clear. Are those winter tyres only meant for driving over snow on road, and not suited for off road even if under the snow is likely to be a lumpy ground, for example, roads out in the countryside that do not have sidewalks? Or can they manage fine a bit off the ground?

I would have assumed that the M+S (Mud and Snow) type of tyres were meant for if you're actually driving a bit further away from the road, like green lane routes, into woods, farmland, very soft blogged down grounds, etc, during snow, and more suited for Defender or Discovery.

Or am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Just get some good AT’s with sipes in.

Winter tyres are often a softer compound. But it’s the sipes that make the most difference. These are what make them good on ice and frosted/compacted snow.

In deep snow and fresh snow however, mud terrains will normally outperform perform winter road tyres. Where MT tyres aren’t as good is on ice, wet bits of road and very compacted snow. Again sipes can make a big difference. MT’s will be the best on snow covered grass or mud, especially if the ground is soft or wet still.

Good AT’s will give the best of both worlds. They don’t have the same compound of winter tyres but as long as they have sipes they will be good in most snowy conditions. And the more aggressive tread over a winter tyre will give better all round multi terrain performance. Ie much better than winter tyres if you head off the road.

Road going winter tyres are not going to be very good on snowy grass or mud. And especially not if the ground is still wet under the snow, or if the snow isn’t very deep.
 
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Right. I've taken many of your advice that All Terrain tyres would be more suitable for my needs, but when trying to find any, I keep ending up with AT tyres that are more suited for summer. rather than winter. Am I doing my homework wrong again? While trying to make a list of examples, here's what I would end up with:

Bridgestone Blizzak DM-V2
Goodyear UltraGrip Performance GEN-1
Pirelli Scorpion Winter
Michelin CrossClimate
BF Goodrich AT KO2
Toyo Open Country AT+
Continental 4x4 WinterContact

Does it look like I'm way off the mark, or do it looks like I'm on the right track? I'm not after one of those, this is just an example of tyres I would note that are supposed to be AT and suited for winter. But sometimes Google is so unless, ask it for AT tyres suited for winter, it shows AT tyres suited for summer! Take for example: BF Goodrich AT KO2, it was said to be summer tyres, yet I read other reviews, that it's a great winter tyres. Someone above mention that it's the "sipes" that I should look for, yet most tyre websites don't point out if the tyre got sipes, and I have to look at the patterns to see if it got one.
 
For some reason most tyre places rate all AT and MT as summer tyres. Frankly it’s bollox and sloppy on their part.
Almost all AT and MT tyres are M&S rated (mud and snow).

You want some with sipes in. The BFG’s will be fine. But not the cheapest. Goodyear Duratracs are nice too, but for some reason we get a massively restricted selection of sizes in the U.K. compared to other markets.

If you are heading off the beaten path look for an AT that looks aggressive. But make sure it has sipes.
 
300bhp/ton said:
For some reason most tyre places rate all AT and MT as summer tyres. Frankly it’s bollox and sloppy on their part.
Almost all AT and MT tyres are M&S rated (mud and snow).

You want some with sipes in. The BFG’s will be fine. But not the cheapest. Goodyear Duratracs are nice too, but for some reason we get a massively restricted selection of sizes in the U.K. compared to other markets.

If you are heading off the beaten path look for an AT that looks aggressive. But make sure it has sipes.
Click to expand...

Oh I see. Great, no wonder I was struggling with trying to find winter AT tyres. Thanks for letting me know.

I'm having a bit of a trouble trying to identify sipes, I've read about what it is, and I've looked at pictures on Google showing what sipes are, but I can't tell if the BF Goodrich KO2 got sipes.
 
Sipes are generally very small "cuts" on the contact surfaces of the tyre, often in a zig-zag shape. Because they are so small, it's unlikely that you'll see them on a photograph of a tyre unless the fact that they are present is highlighted. In most cases you're going to have to physically look at the tyre, but if the TPASF logo is present on the sidewall then it's almost certain that the tyre will have sipes.
The picture shows the tread pattern of a Goodyear Wrangler DuraTrac tyre with the "Three peaks and a snowflake" logo.

Untitled.png


The little round holes are for inserting ice studs but they are illegal in the UK. Studable tyres are OK, provided that the studs are not fitted.
 
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Duratracs would be my choice, but check you can get the size you want. The BFG AT Ko2 also has sipes, although not so zig zaggy as the duratracs. Note the thin lines going across the tread blocks, they are the sipes. Either tyre will do what you are after.

mtavl2_B_ang_xl.jpg



There are lots of other tread patterns too, so have a look about.
 
Well guys. After trying to find any winter tyres to make a shortlist, haven't made much, I've decided to take up the advice from most of you, about going for AT tyres with sipes, so in that case, I've decided to try BF Goodrich AT KO2.

Well, I know that during winter, I would be driving something like 80% on road, 20% off road, and the off road is likely to be grassy fields, stony car parks, muddy laybys, just to get landscape photos. When snow comes, I would still need to go and take some snow covered landscape or any other photos. I've also got people who reply on my giving them a lift. During winter I would do motorway driving but refuse to do so when there's snow or ice. Guess all I can do is just order them, buy them, have them fitted, and then try them out.

I once got stuck on thin layer of snow and ice, on a uphill C class kind of road, in my Ford Focus and could not move the car, there was also three or four other cars in the same boat, everyone helped push the cars. I ended up in this jam all because of trying to get a good looking winter photos where I was going.

Thanks everyone.
 
Great choice after all that too. I’ve had BFG A/T all year round on all my Defenders for the last 25 years .....great all rounder, not too noisy on tarmac, and get you across most ‘sensible’ off road challenges. Cheers A
 
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