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My Landy has been faultless recently, however suddenly today I have big problems. It's a 1986 110 that's been converted to a Disco 200Tdi. Conversion has been done "properly" with full Steve Parker bits on the intake and exhaust side. Always pulled like a train, if a little smoky under load.

Today I started it and it seemed a bit rough at tickover the moment it fired, with a noticeable vibration. Drove off, thinking nothing of it, however I noticed very heavy smoking under accelerartion (more black than blue, but definitely a smell of burning oil)

I nursed it home carefully keeping revs and boost low and it made it. I have digital gauges for water temp, oil temp, oil pressure (as well as standard fit oil light) and turbo boost. All stayed normal on the way home. It was a little lumpy, and although I was being very gentle, there was still power there by the feels of things.

Under the bonnet it's thrown a lot of oil out of the dipstick. There's also a lot of oil in the pipe that runs from the air filter to the turbo. There's a lot of oil everywhere and very little on the dipstick. Water level looks a bit low, although may have been like that before. I can't see any evidence of oil and water mixing...header tank is clear and no mayo under the oil filler cap. Cap was very smoky when I took it off.

My 110 has always like to "mark it's territory" in the dripping oil department, but this is a whole new thing, there's oil all over the alternator, chassis, wheel arch, everywhere. Something has obviously just let go in a big way overnight. I know I should check the crankcase filter on the side of the head, however if that was blocked it would cause oil spray from the dipstick, but would it cause the excessive smoking and rough running?

Head gasket? Knackered piston rings (suddenly?) Turbo?

Help...needless to say I'm absolutely gutted...any help or pointers would be much appreciated.

Thanks
 
blowing oil out of crankcase would be head gasket or hole in piston etc a failed turbo would give large oil loss and oil burning ,youd expect black smoke from a lack of air
 
Might as well check the breather filter you've not got much to lose but it does sound like head gasket, likely gone between no4 and pushrod gallery.

Don't panic, if so it's not major surgery
 
Pictures...

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Video, you can see the smoking dipstick tube at the end. It actually sounds fine to me...TBH my phone has made it sound a bit more rattly and whiney that it sounds in real life.

James, from your comment above, are you saying it's unlikely to be the turbo? TBH I had a turbo go on an Audi, and yes, there was oil and thick white/blue smoke absolutely everywhere, and it had chronic power loss. I'm just not getting symptoms as bad as that. HGF then?
 


Video, you can see the smoking dipstick tube at the end. It actually sounds fine to me...TBH my phone has made it sound a bit more rattly and whiney that it sounds in real life.

James, from your comment above, are you saying it's unlikely to be the turbo? TBH I had a turbo go on an Audi, and yes, there was oil and thick white/blue smoke absolutely everywhere, and it had chronic power loss. I'm just not getting symptoms as bad as that. HGF then?

non open exhaust valves could cause it, but i would be looking at the head gasket and since its a simple job on a tdi its not worth spending days thinking about every scenario ,before undoing head bolts undo brass block drain under the first core plug behind alt
 
Thanks James (as always!)

Am I right that the shopping list is just a top end gasket kit? The head bolts are re-usable? If when I lift the head I find no nasties I may do the timing belt at the same time (and I was looking for an excuse to fit the Steve Parker bottom hose too, so perhaps this is it!)

Any makes to go for or avoid (it's a 3 hole gasket on at the moment)

Interestingly just found this on the Glencoyne website...these are my symptoms to a tee...

"Perhaps the most common failure point is between one of the cylinders and a pushrod tube (again, usually number four cylinder). This gives you a whole variety of alarming symptoms. The engine will run very roughly, blow oil out of every single joint and seal, and if you remove the oil filler cap huge quantities of smoke will belch out. At higher revs the engine may also start to 'run away' due to oil being drawn into the affected cylinder. A fair few people have been persuaded to pay up for a reconditioned engine on the strength of these symptoms, when all that is needed is a new head gasket."
 
My Landy has been faultless recently, however suddenly today I have big problems. It's a 1986 110 that's been converted to a Disco 200Tdi. Conversion has been done "properly" with full Steve Parker bits on the intake and exhaust side. Always pulled like a train, if a little smoky under load.

Today I started it and it seemed a bit rough at tickover the moment it fired, with a noticeable vibration. Drove off, thinking nothing of it, however I noticed very heavy smoking under accelerartion (more black than blue, but definitely a smell of burning oil)

I nursed it home carefully keeping revs and boost low and it made it. I have digital gauges for water temp, oil temp, oil pressure (as well as standard fit oil light) and turbo boost. All stayed normal on the way home. It was a little lumpy, and although I was being very gentle, there was still power there by the feels of things.

Under the bonnet it's thrown a lot of oil out of the dipstick. There's also a lot of oil in the pipe that runs from the air filter to the turbo. There's a lot of oil everywhere and very little on the dipstick. Water level looks a bit low, although may have been like that before. I can't see any evidence of oil and water mixing...header tank is clear and no mayo under the oil filler cap. Cap was very smoky when I took it off.

My 110 has always like to "mark it's territory" in the dripping oil department, but this is a whole new thing, there's oil all over the alternator, chassis, wheel arch, everywhere. Something has obviously just let go in a big way overnight. I know I should check the crankcase filter on the side of the head, however if that was blocked it would cause oil spray from the dipstick, but would it cause the excessive smoking and rough running?

Head gasket? Knackered piston rings (suddenly?) Turbo?

Help...needless to say I'm absolutely gutted...any help or pointers would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Most likely Head Gasket. 200Tdi blow em pretty often.

Payen or Elring gasket.
 
Thanks James (as always!)

Am I right that the shopping list is just a top end gasket kit? The head bolts are re-usable? If when I lift the head I find no nasties I may do the timing belt at the same time (and I was looking for an excuse to fit the Steve Parker bottom hose too, so perhaps this is it!)

Any makes to go for or avoid (it's a 3 hole gasket on at the moment)

Interestingly just found this on the Glencoyne website...these are my symptoms to a tee...

"Perhaps the most common failure point is between one of the cylinders and a pushrod tube (again, usually number four cylinder). This gives you a whole variety of alarming symptoms. The engine will run very roughly, blow oil out of every single joint and seal, and if you remove the oil filler cap huge quantities of smoke will belch out. At higher revs the engine may also start to 'run away' due to oil being drawn into the affected cylinder. A fair few people have been persuaded to pay up for a reconditioned engine on the strength of these symptoms, when all that is needed is a new head gasket."

If only someone had said this at the beginning :p:p

If you don't know how many times the head bolts have been reused it's best to get new ones. As it's a 3hole gasket unless you know otherwise they could well have been used multiple times.

If you find the head needs skimming and another 3 hole isn't thick enough some suppliers stock thicker no hole gaskets but with luck it'll be a straight forward swap and bolt up.
 
So...some spare time today so bit of an update. Here's how my day went...

Drove into my garage under it's own power but really lumpy...

37576922990_f9114279a7_z.jpg


Took it all apart...

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Erm, yeah, that's knackered then. However no mixing of oil and water at all.

37802921182_0403abbcbb_k.jpg


This was the head around the blow. Looks eroded in the pic but after cleaning up it's fine.

37802914312_41d50ca10e_k.jpg


...however the bad news is there is this crack between the valves on cylinders 2 and 3. This is 3 and is worse than 2.

37806197032_a9fd42889c_k.jpg


I used a long rule and a 0.08mm feeler gauge and the head does not seem warped at all (unlikely as it never overheated). Soooooo...the big question...what do I do? Just stick it back together with a new 3 hole gasket? Or strip the head and get it welded and skimmed? I've heard 200Tdi heads are basically impossible to get hold of now, and as clearly fluids aren't yet mixing, perhaps it's better the devil you know?

Other less important questions...
One of the "inners" came out of the no1 glow plug and it came out in two bits...does that mean it's knackered?
The injectors are covered in carbon...do I do anything whilst they are out, or just give it some injector cleaning additive when back together?
Bores etc all look good...should I be doing anything or just leave alone?
Haynes manual is going on about DTI and piston protrusion to decide what size gasket to use...any truth in this or just go like for like (and yes, already bought a 3 hole gasket...)
 
Those valve seats don't look that good in your pictures, and I don't know whether it's the angle of taking the pictures or what, but that crack looks like it's gone though the valve seats.
I would say that it could be a trip to a specialist engineering firm to get the head refurbished. It could possibly do with new valve guides as well as some cast welding maybe skimming to true it up and the seats refaced.
 
So...some spare time today so bit of an update. Here's how my day went...

Drove into my garage under it's own power but really lumpy...

37576922990_f9114279a7_z.jpg


Took it all apart...

37834584041_c5eb57f6d4_k.jpg


23982256808_98a94a125a_k.jpg


Erm, yeah, that's knackered then. However no mixing of oil and water at all.

37802921182_0403abbcbb_k.jpg


This was the head around the blow. Looks eroded in the pic but after cleaning up it's fine.

37802914312_41d50ca10e_k.jpg


...however the bad news is there is this crack between the valves on cylinders 2 and 3. This is 3 and is worse than 2.

37806197032_a9fd42889c_k.jpg


I used a long rule and a 0.08mm feeler gauge and the head does not seem warped at all (unlikely as it never overheated). Soooooo...the big question...what do I do? Just stick it back together with a new 3 hole gasket? Or strip the head and get it welded and skimmed? I've heard 200Tdi heads are basically impossible to get hold of now, and as clearly fluids aren't yet mixing, perhaps it's better the devil you know?

Other less important questions...
One of the "inners" came out of the no1 glow plug and it came out in two bits...does that mean it's knackered?
The injectors are covered in carbon...do I do anything whilst they are out, or just give it some injector cleaning additive when back together?
Bores etc all look good...should I be doing anything or just leave alone?
Haynes manual is going on about DTI and piston protrusion to decide what size gasket to use...any truth in this or just go like for like (and yes, already bought a 3 hole gasket...)
it needs a skim to remove the grooves were fire ring has sat, you can then have valve seats cut the same amount so same thickness gasket that was fitted can be again, or you use thicker gasket
glow plug is knackered,
though the crack would mean its a head i wouldnt reuse, id get a second hand one, possibility of water leak and valve seats dropping out, seats are held in place by a 3-4 thou fit cracking removes that
 
Thanks James for the advice...grrr...kinda what I was expecting but I think I've sourced a 2nd hand one so I'll probably just buy that, get it skimmed and valve seats re-cut and go from there. Thanks again.
 
Right then, update time. I took the head to a specialist local firm (very well respected, lots of enormous vintage engines from Bentleys, Simplex etc in there too) and they have pressure tested it and said it should be fine with a skim and new valve seats. They also do a lot of LR stuff and said I could in theory get it welded, however it puts a lot of heat in the head and if it were "theirs" they would not bother with the welding. To keep the costs down they suggested I remove the valves and do a basic decoke, and they will machine it from there.

Question...I picked up a nice Sykes Pickavant 039900 valve spring compressor from eBay for a fiver but it's the wrong shape to do the job. Can someone tell me what type it is I need for the 200Tdi head?

s-l225.jpg
 
Those SP valve tools are nice. My father used one all his working life and I have had one for 25 years. You can make up a piece of tube stock steel, hacksaw and filing to shape, to use with that SP tool. It is a bit fiddly to use, served me for some time though.

Have a look in a catalog of basic garage tools and you will see two types, one will have a business end like your SP, the other will have a two inch long, inch and a quarter wide, sort of bit of tube there. Either spring for one of that sort (under £20 if not SP) or make a bit to look like the one in the picture and struggle along with it like a skinflint. Or, in other words, like me.

Oh yes, TDIs very rarely mix oil and water during head gasket events, in my experience at least, and often seem to go on No.3 or between 3 and 4. But you know that now...
 
Right then, update time. I took the head to a specialist local firm (very well respected, lots of enormous vintage engines from Bentleys, Simplex etc in there too) and they have pressure tested it and said it should be fine with a skim and new valve seats. They also do a lot of LR stuff and said I could in theory get it welded, however it puts a lot of heat in the head and if it were "theirs" they would not bother with the welding. To keep the costs down they suggested I remove the valves and do a basic decoke, and they will machine it from there.

Question...I picked up a nice Sykes Pickavant 039900 valve spring compressor from eBay for a fiver but it's the wrong shape to do the job. Can someone tell me what type it is I need for the 200Tdi head?

s-l225.jpg
Ha ha I bought exactly the same one :oops:
Can't advise on the correct one but in the meantime I used a G clamp to strip mine while you're waiting for the correct one.
 
Thanks guys. I found what I think is a suitable one on eBay...Draper...for £15 so as soon as I have that I'll strip it down.

Another question, I read somewhere (Haynes manual IIRC) that the 200 head is doweled. My understanding is that's a short locating stub of metal, so when removing the head you have to lift it vertically off, and of course it makes locating the new gasket easier. However there were no dowels on my engine. Should there be?
 
Quick bump...can anyone answer the dowels question for me please? Obviously I don't want to put it back together until I know whether it should have them as per the Haynes manual. Thanks!
 
Well to bring this thread to a close, yes the dowels are very important so were duly replaced. I had the head pressure tested, skimmed, valve seats re-machined, and once I re-assembled it valves were vacuum tested and only 1 and 8 needed lapping in. It all went back together fine (apart from shearing one of the rocker shaft bolts at a ridiculously low torque...stub removed with pliers and all bolts swapped for new ones). It started after about 30 seconds, road tested fine, so I flushed the oil, then got really carried away and took the sump off to get rid of any sludge (although there wasn't any) and then installed a cork gasket as the old sealant job was pretty rubbish. I've done a few miles now, road and some off road, and it's like a different vehicle...up on power, down on smoke, and not leaking oil everywhere. So I reckon the gasket was on the way out for some time, especially looking at the deposits on the head and block.

Anyway, thanks for the advice on here!

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