dave21478 said:
Jesus wept, are you being deliberately obtuse? What system? I repeat....what system should any garage be checking for information? Serious question - tell me where they will find this information.
Please let me know where every piece of information about every car on the road is available in a simple, searchable database, accessable by any garage in the country. Manufacturers do not provide this sort of information to other garages - its not exactly in their best interests to do so is it?

Do you think that Kwikfit have a little room out the back with huge sheving systems holding thousands of Owners manuals and Haynes manuals? or do you believe that they have a conputer and they just look up www.everythingyoueverwantedtoknowaboutanycareverbuilt.com?

It doesnt exist! this is my whole point, which you seem unable to grasp....any garage simply can not know everything.
Click to expand...

It goes back to the point you made earlier about going to a solicitor for legal advice, dentist . The tyre company entered into a contract when they accepted his money to provide fit for service erm service - and they didn't - you MUST see that, or is it to OBTUSE?

Heck, you mention Kwikfit - their website home page says "Kwik Fit are experts in automotive repair including tyres..." Their own sales moto is/was "We're the boys to trust" !!!

Does it get any clearer?

You mention they can't run a database of all cars, well they basically do. If you do a tyre search on their website, you can drill down from loads of manuafaturers to pick Land Rover, then Freelander, then model to find the right tyre size for the car. So they have "trawled enough Haynes manuals" to gather enough information to take people's money off them as quickly as possible.
 
dave21478 said:
Jesus wept, are you being deliberately obtuse? What system? I repeat....what system should any garage be checking for information? Serious question - tell me where they will find this information.
Please let me know where every piece of information about every car on the road is available in a simple, searchable database, accessable by any garage in the country. Manufacturers do not provide this sort of information to other garages - its not exactly in their best interests to do so is it?

Do you think that Kwikfit have a little room out the back with huge sheving systems holding thousands of Owners manuals and Haynes manuals? or do you believe that they have a conputer and they just look up www.everythingyoueverwantedtoknowaboutanycareverbuilt.com?

It doesnt exist! this is my whole point, which you seem unable to grasp....any garage simply can not know everything.
Click to expand...

I beleive yr suggesting your in the garage trade? Hmm i think we should all be giving you a wide berth its simply no excuse to say there 1000s of vehicles out there how can we know them all? ITS YR JOB TO KNOW THEM ALL OR FIND OUT THE CORRECT INFORMATION FOR THE VEHICLE YOUR WORKING ON, WHEN THESE VEHICLE WERE RLETAVELY NEW IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN PART OF THE INFORMATION A GARAGE ACCURED TO REPAIR THE VEHICLE THEN AND KEPT FOR REFERANCE BE IT KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORKERS FIKES OR COMPUTERISED SYSTEMS, WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR TYRE PRESSURES FROM? - OH THEY LOOK PUMPED UP ENOUGH? NO THERE WILL BE A SPECIFIC TOLERANCE SOMEWHERE FOR THAT VEHICLE SAME AS THE TORQUE SETTINGS FOR THE WHEEL NUTS WHEVER THIS INFORMATIIN IS THAT A REPUTABLE GARAGE USES (and its in referanca books because ive seen them at garages) THIS IS WHERE ANYOTHER INFO SHOULD BE weither its there or not IT SHOULD BE AND THATS THE POINT..

By your logic if you had a plumber round to fit new taps and he got the hot and cold the wrong way around but he did nit know on your sink they had to go the unusual opposite way around its you in the wrong for not telling him nit his for not having the correct information? No sir i think you would complain..
 
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The correct information was given in the handbook the handbook is part of the car, it should travel with the car wherever it goes so that the owner, tyre fitter, mechanic or whoever needs to look at it at anytime ...can do so - thats what they are for.
 
I see your logic there.., do they ever ask to see it and say we cannot do our jobs correctly without it so ull need to sign a waver for us to do the work?

A good modern example is a newish bmw with run flat tyres how do kwickfit(for eg) know about fitting run flat tyres and about the pressure sensors and different types? They had to find the information out because ITS THEIR JOB to do soand the service they advertise to provide and its a safety aspect also what if one of tgeir incorrectly fitted wheels /tyres that they thought was normal but actually was wrong caused an accident? Of course they would be liable you not in the real world my friend..
 
Brack said:
The correct information was given in the handbook the handbook is part of the car, it should travel with the car wherever it goes so that the owner, tyre fitter, mechanic or whoever needs to look at it at anytime ...can do so - thats what they are for.
Click to expand...

now for those of us that live in the real world:D
 
essexpestcontrol said:
now for those of us that live in the real world:D
Click to expand...
Not really true is it or the handbook would contain an equivalent to the haynes manual and cover every aspect of repair not just service information and how to care for your paint, doing things mechanically wrong is dangerous and thats why they are taken to places that advertise providing the service..
 
thequeenscheese said:
I see your logic there.., do they ever ask to see it and say we cannot do our jobs correctly without it so ull need to sign a waver for us to do the work?

A good modern example is a newish bmw with run flat tyres how do kwickfit(for eg) know about fitting run flat tyres and about the pressure sensors and different types? They had to find the information out because ITS THEIR JOB to do soand the service they advertise to provide and its a safety aspect also what if one of tgeir incorrectly fitted wheels /tyres that they thought was normal but actually was wrong caused an accident? Of course they would be liable you not in the real world my friend..
Click to expand...

No they don't ask to see the handbook - but the owner should have read it and it should be available...if they do ask.
 
thequeenscheese said:
Not really true is it or the handbook would contain an equivalent to the haynes manual and cover every aspect of repair not just service information and how to care for your paint, doing things mechanically wrong is dangerous and thats why they are taken to places that advertise providing the service..
Click to expand...

I refer to post 84 the correct information was in the handbook

This is getting tyre-ing

I wish the OP good luck as before :)

OUT.
 
thequeenscheese said:
I beleive yr suggesting your in the garage trade? Hmm i think we should all be giving you a wide berth its simply no excuse to say there 1000s of vehicles out there how can we know them all? ITS YR JOB TO KNOW THEM ALL OR FIND OUT THE CORRECT INFORMATION FOR THE VEHICLE YOUR WORKING ON, WHEN THESE VEHICLE WERE RLETAVELY NEW IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN PART OF THE INFORMATION A GARAGE ACCURED TO REPAIR THE VEHICLE THEN AND KEPT FOR REFERANCE BE IT KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORKERS FIKES OR COMPUTERISED SYSTEMS, WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR TYRE PRESSURES FROM? - OH THEY LOOK PUMPED UP ENOUGH? NO THERE WILL BE A SPECIFIC TOLERANCE SOMEWHERE FOR THAT VEHICLE SAME AS THE TORQUE SETTINGS FOR THE WHEEL NUTS WHEVER THIS INFORMATIIN IS THAT A REPUTABLE GARAGE USES (and its in referanca books because ive seen them at garages) THIS IS WHERE ANYOTHER INFO SHOULD BE weither its there or not IT SHOULD BE AND THATS THE POINT..

By your logic if you had a plumber round to fit new taps and he got the hot and cold the wrong way around but he did nit know on your sink they had to go the unusual opposite way around its you in the wrong for not telling him nit his for not having the correct information? No sir i think you would complain..
Click to expand...

1. Stop shouting. It doesnt make you any more correct.
2. I was in the garage trade for 8 years at various levels ranging from Saturday boy up to workshop foreman. I stopped about ten years ago.
3. As I said - yes, they should know all this information, but they dont. They cant- there is just too much required knowledge to be collated in one physical place. The effort required to keep an online database up to date and accurate would be enormous. Full Stop.
4. Yes, there are reference books and tyre pressure charts, generally provided by a manufacturer who pays for it. One manufacturer will pay for the reference books relating to their product, another to their products and so on. Who would make the one saying what wheels need to go where on each car? there is no manufacturer to do that and the vehicle manufacturers will not release that sort of information to other garages - ever. It is nobodys interest to make a universal one, if that were even possible - see point 3 above. It is in nobodys financial interest to make the effort to build a database like that. Autodata is about the closest, but the info it contains is not all-encompassing and its not exactly cheap to access it.
5. Remember, I am not talking about just this Freelander incident here....the range of vehicles on the road is genuinely breathtaking. Its just not reasonable to know it all. Did you know that the Vauxhall Cavalier Turbo has the same transmission design problem as the Freelander? probably not - why would a tyre fitter know that when there is no reference book that says so and he has probably never even seen a cavalier turbo before?

Its all about reasonable expectations. Going to a fast fit garage, you expect the tyre fitter to fit the tyres well.....not scratch the wheels, not tear the sidewalls, get the beads seated correctly, balance them correctly and torque the nuts correctly. If your car requires specific fitting instructions, the reasonable expectation is that the owner will tell the garage this. As I said and as I keep saying, expecting a garage (especially a fast-fit place) to just instinctively know this is NOT a reasonable expectation. They dont have crystal balls and there is no resource that can be checked for this kind of thing. You can say that there should be as many times as you want, but there isnt and there never will be.
 
GrumpyGel said:
It goes back to the point you made earlier about going to a solicitor for legal advice, dentist . The tyre company entered into a contract when they accepted his money to provide fit for service erm service - and they didn't - you MUST see that, or is it to OBTUSE?

Heck, you mention Kwikfit - their website home page says "Kwik Fit are experts in automotive repair including tyres..." Their own sales moto is/was "We're the boys to trust" !!!

Does it get any clearer?

You mention they can't run a database of all cars, well they basically do. If you do a tyre search on their website, you can drill down from loads of manuafaturers to pick Land Rover, then Freelander, then model to find the right tyre size for the car. So they have "trawled enough Haynes manuals" to gather enough information to take people's money off them as quickly as possible.
Click to expand...

The garages job was to fit new tyres. They fitted new tyres and (I assume) did that well - didnt rip the sidewalls, didnt scratch the wheels etc. Thats all they are required to do and it is unreasonable to expect them to know about any special fitting requirements for one particular car out of thousands on the road.
As I said in my last post, there is no universal knowledge database - there just cant be.
 
dave21478 said:
The garages job was to fit new tyres. They fitted new tyres and (I assume) did that well - didnt rip the sidewalls, didnt scratch the wheels etc. Thats all they are required to do and it is unreasonable to expect them to know about any special fitting requirements for one particular car out of thousands on the road.
As I said in my last post, there is no universal knowledge database - there just cant be.
Click to expand...
Agian yr still wrong did they refit the wheels? Yes they did so they should know where to fit them its irrelevant whether the info is readily available or not its their and your job to find it, exactly as the law is, IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE i care not about yours years of experience as it has no relevance to right and wrong and not knowing where to fit your newley supplied tryes( or tgat it should have 4 not 2) is wrong, its reasonable to expect any tyre fitting service to know this, it us also reasonable to think that when a new model of vehicle comes out that businessebusinesses invoinvolved with said vehicles should request all relevant information from the manufaturer its no different than accuring the varuvarious different info needed for all the different engine types .
Your making excuses that dont wash..
 
Blimey: all I wanted to know was whether there's a Technical/ Service Bulletin or somesuch available in which LR acknowledges the existence of the front tyre fitting/ IRD failure problem.

Clearly not!

Hey ho.

Cheers,

JD.
 
dave21478 said:
1. Stop shouting. It doesnt make you any more correct.

2. I was in the garage trade for 8 years at various levels ranging from Saturday boy up to workshop foreman. I stopped about ten years ago.

3. As I said - yes, they should know all this information, but they dont. They cant- there is just too much required knowledge to be collated in one physical place. The effort required to keep an online database up to date and accurate would be enormous. Full Stop.

4. Yes, there are reference books and tyre pressure charts, generally provided by a manufacturer who pays for it. One manufacturer will pay for the reference books relating to their product, another to their products and so on. Who would make the one saying what wheels need to go where on each car? there is no manufacturer to do that and the vehicle manufacturers will not release that sort of information to other garages - ever. It is nobodys interest to make a universal one, if that were even possible - see point 3 above. It is in nobodys financial interest to make the effort to build a database like that. Autodata is about the closest, but the info it contains is not all-encompassing and its not exactly cheap to access it.

5. Remember, I am not talking about just this Freelander incident here....the range of vehicles on the road is genuinely breathtaking. Its just not reasonable to know it all. Did you know that the Vauxhall Cavalier Turbo has the same transmission design problem as the Freelander? probably not - why would a tyre fitter know that when there is no reference book that says so and he has probably never even seen a cavalier turbo before?



Its all about reasonable expectations. Going to a fast fit garage, you expect the tyre fitter to fit the tyres well.....not scratch the wheels, not tear the sidewalls, get the beads seated correctly, balance them correctly and torque the nuts correctly. If your car requires specific fitting instructions, the reasonable expectation is that the owner will tell the garage this. As I said and as I keep saying, expecting a garage (especially a fast-fit place) to just instinctively know this is NOT a reasonable expectation. They dont have crystal balls and there is no resource that can be checked for this kind of thing. You can say that there should be as many times as you want, but there isnt and there never will be.
Click to expand...


+1

Sorry queens cheese but I have to agree with this based on the 18 years I have spent in the motor trade. Working at main dealers and at small ( for want of a better phrase) back street garages. I don't spend so much time on the spanners now as I do breakdown and recovery.

I do feel for the OP but the onus is on the owner/driver to make sure that, if they use a garage other than the main dealer, all work is carried out in line with the recommendations of the manufacturer.

If the dealer had made a balls up, with all of the TSBs (technical service bulletins) that they have (and no one else has) then and only then would I expect a claim to have a favorable outcome for the OP.

If the service the day after the tyres were fitted was at landrover, and there was no advisory issued about the tyre tred depths....... Again maybe a claim. But if that service was anywhere else the garage wouldn't have the information.

All if this is proved by the fact the OP gas not been able to find information anywhere including from landrover except the owners manual about fitting tyres.

And for the record I have worked on many vehicles from different manufactures and until about 6 months ago I didn't know that the freelander was fussy about tyres. If a hippo came into the workshops for service the tyre tread depths would be noted. But how could Anyone ever know all of the nuances of all of the cars ever built.
 
Johnnyd said:
Blimey: all I wanted to know was whether there's a Technical/ Service Bulletin or somesuch available in which LR acknowledges the existence of the front tyre fitting/ IRD failure problem.

Clearly not!

Hey ho.

Cheers,

JD.
Click to expand...
Have you tried L/R? Maybe even call some other national tyre fitters and ask what yhey reccomend and get it in writing?..
 
thequeenscheese said:
Agian yr still wrong did they refit the wheels? Yes they did so they should know where to fit them its irrelevant whether the info is readily available or not its their and your job to find it, exactly as the law is, IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE i care not about yours years of experience as it has no relevance to right and wrong and not knowing where to fit your newley supplied tryes( or tgat it should have 4 not 2) is wrong, its reasonable to expect any tyre fitting service to know this, it us also reasonable to think that when a new model of vehicle comes out that businessebusinesses invoinvolved with said vehicles should request all relevant information from the manufaturer its no different than accuring the varuvarious different info needed for all the different engine types .
Your making excuses that dont wash..
Click to expand...

Dude, I am not making excuses, I am stating facts.

And manufacturers will never willingly give out technical information about their cars to other garages - and I mean never, ever, ever. Infact manufacturers are constantly lobbying for their knowledge and information to be kept secret. They dont want other garages to be able to repair their cars so that they can try to maintain a monopoly on servicing and repairs.
 
If you dont have the info then dont state you will do the job this is an argument you cant win the outcome will always be if the merchant did something wrong because of a poor knowledge base and it causes harm tgey will be liable its as simple as that.
Unfortunately not for the op as he hadnt kept to the servicing recommendations.
So agian the comment is irrelevant
 
Took a look through some Freelander known fiixes and bulletins in Autodata and this one is the only one a little related:

wqtd.png
 
dave21478 said:
Dude, I am not making excuses, I am stating facts.

And manufacturers will never willingly give out technical information about their cars to other garages - and I mean never, ever, ever. Infact manufacturers are constantly lobbying for their knowledge and information to be kept secret. They dont want other garages to be able to repair their cars so that they can try to maintain a monopoly on servicing and repairs.
Click to expand...

+1 standard practice, Dealers want the work. And the different makes of cars have there own special electric machines to check what is wrong. Most garages is oil/filter, brakes, exhaust,shocks. You don't see new cars in a general repair shop. And warranty work has to be done at that makes dealer
 
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