The problem with requiring any kind of certificate of competency or special licence is:

1. those who abuse the lanes will continue to do so without the necessary documentation and then the scheme will be considered by the anti's to have failed and then used against us.

2. it provides the enforcing bodies/authorities with the ability to easily introduce quota's/restrictions therefore limiting the ability for persons to legally drive the lanes, and what's to stop them then slashing the number of certificates/licences issues each year until only a handful are issued.

what about the casual user - I only managed to go laning last year about 2 or 3 times

DTd5 said:

The problem with requiring any kind of certificate of competency or special licence is:

1. those who abuse the lanes will continue to do so without the necessary documentation and then the scheme will be considered by the anti's to have failed and then used against us.

2. it provides the enforcing bodies/authorities with the ability to easily introduce quota's/restrictions therefore limiting the ability for persons to legally drive the lanes, and what's to stop them then slashing the number of certificates/licences issues each year until only a handful are issued.

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Most licensing schemes are abused to a small extent. What I think is the difference with a licencing scheme is that it would raise money, which could be spent on repair and maintenance of the lanes, thereby removing some of the complaints of the antis about damage and impaired access for other users.
Not even convinced of the necessity of competence testing myself, but I could see that paying a small extra fee to use byways could soften the attitude of many councils towards 4x4. Highways budgets are a contentious issue anyway, without unsurfaced roads being taken into account.

Like an off road tax disc, really . And the issue of occasional users, of which I am one myself, could be addressed by making the discs available on a monthly or weekly basis. Most people who can afford to run a 4x4 could afford a tenner for a months laning permit a few times a year. And the money could go to the council, if they didn't repair the byways it would be seen as their fault, rather than the drivers.

Hmm. The idea of taking tests does not appeal to me at all. I am more the type to occasionally follow others on green lanes rather than map out routes of my own. If I had to take a test, I wouldn't bother and would stick to pay and play sites. If it's a public road/byway your license should cover you driving the car you are licensed to drive on any road.

A few years ago a casual conversation on here led to my very first tentative steps out on a laning trip with the three musketeers and so a hobby and lifestyle was started.

At that point I had no idea I'd like it or know what to do . Your idea of both paying and testing and licencing being required before I'd have even started to see if it was something I'd like would have effectively stopped my hobby in its tracks before I'd ever even tried it. ..how do you get the next generation of laners interested using your ideas ?

Secondly ...I have never looked at an OS map, used memory map ( don't have it ) or led a group ...I have no inclination or talent to do so. ..instead I go laning with responsible people who have done their homework and I bring my other contribution to the event. ..in my case cakes. Again. ..making a classroom test part of the conditions would have put me right off.


Now if you talked about byways having coded access that you need to ring the row officer to get the code for ( and give registration details inorder to get the code ) These keycodes changed regularly then I mifht have been thinking its a good idea.

Have to say though more than anything the passionate nature of the OP whilst to be admired for its determination to fight for the future of his hobby does have a smidgen tendency to sound a little sanctimonious and preachy and the style may alienate some people from action......maybe focusing some of the drive to the perception of how others read the suggestion and taking on board that feedback would progress the idea further. Still all said...hard to criticise too much enthusiasm and passion even if it's a tincy bit off kilter.

BOOMER said:

There are many truck drivers including myself that were horrified at the prospect of having to pass a DCPC (Driver Certificate of Professional Competence) despite many of us knowing how to do our jobs perfectly well.

Now tell me it's unworkable...

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Professional drivers, need professional qualifications, shock horror!! Does this include the 19 year old who just killed 4 people with a tipper truck? OK, cheap shot, but we greenlaners are NOT professionals, it's a hobby.

Turboman said:

In my opinion it is doubtful if people who are going out on laning trips in heavily modified vehicles with huge tyres and equipped with massive winches, have any intention of driving within acceptable limits.

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What utter Sanctimonius Bull****. I'm South Yorks Glass rep and have large, well 235 85 16, extreme tyres, and a winch, shouldn't I drive lanes? Why not? My tyres don't slip anywhere near as much now as when I had AT's so to my mind actually cause less damage, borne out somewhat by the farmer who stopped us for a chat in the Lakes who said we at least had decent tyres on!

I can only afford one vehicle and it's used for way more than simple green laning, so when I do go laning, what do I do, take the decent kit off it every time just to suit your delicate sensibilities?

What happens to a group of novices when one gets stuck, as they invariably do on even the flattest lanes? I have the means to recover them and the expertise to do it safely. Jeez, someone got stuck on LZ10, we used my winch then .. AND THAT WAS ON A ROAD, albeit a ditch at the side of the road .. without my winch he'd still be there, probably.

Get off your high horse and stop blaming 4x4 users, and moan at those who are fighting against us, the walkers mostly, the old biddies who have nothing better to do, the affronted rambler. Join and support Glass or TRF and do something positive rather than introducing YET MORE LEGISLATION FOR A HOBBY .... Treadlightly when laning ...

Negative bull**** like that being proposed will only divide us all, look at me ranting fercrissakes!!! Attack the attackers not your colleagues.

Paul D said:

Professional drivers, need professional qualifications, shock horror!! Does this include the 19 year old who just killed 4 people with a tipper truck? OK, cheap shot, but we greenlaners are NOT professionals, it's a hobby.



What utter Sanctimonius Bull****. I'm South Yorks Glass rep and have large, well 235 85 16, extreme tyres, and a winch, shouldn't I drive lanes? Why not? My tyres don't slip anywhere near as much now as when I had AT's so to my mind actually cause less damage, borne out somewhat by the farmer who stopped us for a chat in the Lakes who said we at least had decent tyres on!

I can only afford one vehicle and it's used for way more than simple green laning, so when I do go laning, what do I do, take the decent kit off it every time just to suit your delicate sensibilities?

What happens to a group of novices when one gets stuck, as they invariably do on even the flattest lanes? I have the means to recover them and the expertise to do it safely. Jeez, someone got stuck on LZ10, we used my winch then .. AND THAT WAS ON A ROAD, albeit a ditch at the side of the road .. without my winch he'd still be there, probably.

Get off your high horse and stop blaming 4x4 users, and moan at those who are fighting against us, the walkers mostly, the old biddies who have nothing better to do, the affronted rambler. Join and support Glass or TRF and do something positive rather than introducing YET MORE LEGISLATION FOR A HOBBY .... Treadlightly when laning ...

Negative bull**** like that being proposed will only divide us all, look at me ranting fercrissakes!!! Attack the attackers not your colleagues.

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My comment wasn't aimed at you, Paul, you are experienced, and yu may remember that I congratulated you on your appointment as SY glass rep when you posted about it.

Sadly there are many novices that start laning with no reference to glass, using vehicles that are more suitable to pay and play, and I think you will agree that a large tyre with aggressive tread spinning will cause more damge than a smaller one. Tractors do appalling ground damage, I should know, I have been driving them 30+ years.

Its not really about what tyres you have, but about being able to read ground conditions, and that I exactly what the inexperienced can not do.

I certainly didn't suggest using AT tyres for laning, I never do myself, although I have a set for towing.

Also, I have been a glass member for many years, take a keen interest in all rights of way matters, partly because I live on a long unsurfaced road which suffers from some illegal abuse at times. I have had fairly regular dealings with the ramblers association in connection with this, and have actually collaborated with them in keeping one local ROW open.

I have also written a number of letters concerning current and previous national ROW legislation both to my MP, and to several county councillors.

The antis are a powerful and active lobby, and while there are many responsible laners, there are also a number who are not, and the activities of the few bad apples give powerful ammunition to them.

Afraid I have seen the damage with my own eyes a few times

Fair comments then, but part of my rant still stands. We continually, as a group, look inwards and bemoan the ####wits with many people not doing a damn thing about it. We've all seen the damage, but when we ourselves highlight it, it's sometimes picked on as ammo by the anti's .. or seen as in-fighting and laughed at!

I suggest we leave the ####wits to it and instead focus on what's happening to close lanes where it matters .. send in the evidence of use forms, work within the walking communities and rambling forums to challenge their "Our way is the only way" mentality .. I'm a member of a few walking forums, without them knowing who I actually am (though I do like walking and hiking too) and always engage when someone suggests that 4x4's are solely responsible for damage ...

Sorry for the rant, you hit a raw nerve, probably 'cos I've had many people question me, from within Glass too, about having a winch and extreme tyres and espousing treadlightly!!

Paul D said:

Fair comments then, but part of my rant still stands. We continually, as a group, look inwards and bemoan the ####wits with many people not doing a damn thing about it. We've all seen the damage, but when we ourselves highlight it, it's sometimes picked on as ammo by the anti's .. or seen as in-fighting and laughed at!

I suggest we leave the ####wits to it and instead focus on what's happening to close lanes where it matters .. send in the evidence of use forms, work within the walking communities and rambling forums to challenge their "Our way is the only way" mentality .. I'm a member of a few walking forums, without them knowing who I actually am (though I do like walking and hiking too) and always engage when someone suggests that 4x4's are solely responsible for damage ...

Sorry for the rant, you hit a raw nerve, probably 'cos I've had many people question me, from within Glass too, about having a winch and extreme tyres and espousing treadlightly!!

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No worries, mate, as I said I admire the fact you have taken on the glass job. And I knew that you would cop it in the neck from all sides. It is always the same if you volunteer for anything.

And I do agree that concentrating on local issues on a one by one basis is a good way to go, in addition to the national legal campaigns by Glass, TRF etc. Which is exactly what I do, use my contacts in all camps to try and keep things fairly harmonious locally.

For me it is a numbers issue, really. When I first started laning in the mid eighties, it was a tiny minority interest, and there was a level of difficulty with it, there were no internet resources to find lanes, and there were no vehicle options other than old landy, and as you know running them can be quite a skilled and expensive business.
Situation now is huge interest, excellent info resources, and a huge supply of cheap old Discos and Japcrap.
So a lot of more people are using the lanes, which of course have been sadly reduced by NERC

And as I said, there is a percentage of bad apples, had a couple of trail bikes through here this morning, must have been doing 45mph and this isn't even a byway. They think it is great fun to splash through the puddles at speed, we are not laughing as we shovel roadstone at £300 quid a load into the potholes.

Which is why I am not dismissive of some kind of licensing scheme if it would raise some money for byway repair, and maybe deter a few wrong uns.

When people suggest that 4x4 are the sole problem, you could try pointing out that agricultural tractors actually cause tremendous damage on some routes, I have seen a lot of this in my work.

And if people go on about your winch and tyres, yu could always point out the old truth, it aint what you got, its what you do with it!

Paul D said:

.... about having a winch and extreme tyres and espousing treadlightly!!

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The bigger, more extreme tyre, the more lighty you CAN tread - as you say Paul if the tyre's not slipping as much then it's not causing as much ground damage - doesn't apply to rocks, but then they take far longer to become damaged by spinning rubber.

Why is it that some tractors are fitted with massive double-width wheels and tyres (usually for green keeping etc.) or 70 ton main battle tanks have tracks instead of a few wheels? It's all about spreading the load, less pounds per square inch on the ground.

DIFFLOCK66 said:

The bigger, more extreme tyre, the more lighty you CAN tread - as you say Paul if the tyre's not slipping as much then it's not causing as much ground damage - doesn't apply to rocks, but then they take far longer to become damaged by spinning rubber.

Why is it that some tractors are fitted with massive double-width wheels and tyres (usually for green keeping etc.) or 70 ton main battle tanks have tracks instead of a few wheels? It's all about spreading the load, less pounds per square inch on the ground.

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Yes,it is not spinning the wheels that is the important thing on really soft ground And some big tyres are such low ground pressure it doesn't hurt if they run over your foot!

The double wheels are mainly used, as you say for bowling greens etc, where they will have tread like a road tyre, or for ploughing, where they spread the load of a modern tractor and plough, which can weigh up to ten tons. Also gives more width of lugs for traction.
I have often ploughed with bolt on double wheels upcountry, few have them in Kernow, it isn't that kind of farming round here.

Just to give you an update on the pilot I have been working on.

We did our first half day session on driving on unsurfaced roads at the local college off road course with qualified instructors. Everyone enjoyed it and learned something. I am now working on the theory based training on staying legal, relationships with other users etc, together with a possible garage based session on types of preparation and tyres. The only cost for this was £50 for the off road training session, so not unreasonable. The rest our local members are going to help deliver the rest.

We have another day on saturday for the more advanced people, those wanting to lead etc. It will cover recovery techniques and winching. Because they might need these, not so they can go looking for places to get stuck. The cost of that is £25 per person for the day and it sounds like it will be great fun as well.

Our trip back from the Lakes yesterday was proof of how important it is that someone knows what they are doing. My group came up behind another group who were stuck on Cam steps and it had started to snow. The group contained a vehicle with a baby in it. They had already ripped the bumper off two discos. The rear vehicle was someone totally new to laning with road tyres on. Even when he got pulled up the steps he couldn't get any further. There is nowhere to turn either. Luckily our second group caught up, led by Dean who does recovery for the MSA. Without him and the rest of our people, they would still be stuck on Cam. The training we are looking at is to stop that happening. A brief session on driving. preparation, tyres and trailwise would probably have been enough. (the guy in front of me didn't have his diff lock in) Non of our people had any trouble, except for the Jimny which broke its diff lock and needed a tow.

suew said:

Just to give you an update on the pilot I have been working on.

We did our first half day session on driving on unsurfaced roads at the local college off road course with qualified instructors. Everyone enjoyed it and learned something. I am now working on the theory based training on staying legal, relationships with other users etc, together with a possible garage based session on types of preparation and tyres. The only cost for this was £50 for the off road training session, so not unreasonable. The rest our local members are going to help deliver the rest.

We have another day on saturday for the more advanced people, those wanting to lead etc. It will cover recovery techniques and winching. Because they might need these, not so they can go looking for places to get stuck. The cost of that is £25 per person for the day and it sounds like it will be great fun as well.

Our trip back from the Lakes yesterday was proof of how important it is that someone knows what they are doing. My group came up behind another group who were stuck on Cam steps and it had started to snow. The group contained a vehicle with a baby in it. They had already ripped the bumper off two discos. The rear vehicle was someone totally new to laning with road tyres on. Even when he got pulled up the steps he couldn't get any further. There is nowhere to turn either. Luckily our second group caught up, led by Dean who does recovery for the MSA. Without him and the rest of our people, they would still be stuck on Cam. The training we are looking at is to stop that happening. A brief session on driving. preparation, tyres and trailwise would probably have been enough. (the guy in front of me didn't have his diff lock in) Non of our people had any trouble, except for the Jimny which broke its diff lock and needed a tow.

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Pleased that went well for yu, and everyone had a good time!

LOL about the people with the baby!

Years ago in Hampshire, I came across a place where a swing shovel had dug a huge drainage ditch right across a lane I had gone into blind, it was a tight holloway, and I had to reverse for nearly two miles! I had a sore neck the next day!

When are the courses in Kernow starting? I will sign up!

I've followed this and some other threads quietly, and for sure I agree something needs to be done about abuse of the dwindling number of lanes we are allowed to drive. To be honest I'm not sure about the issuing of licences and it's associated beaurocracy, so perhaps I can offer an alternative idea. How about, each Parish, village or town that has lanes in it, or nearby could have a kind of 'lane warden' who, working with locals and the laning,horsey,walky, motorbikey communities would monitor and if necessary report anyone or thing that is spotted abusing the lanes.
The problem really is one of responsibility, it will be impossible to stop the 'baseball cap in spaceframed (i.e rusty) Disco out for a thrash on a rainy Sunday, without some form of Big Brother surveillance, which we should do our best to avoid at all costs.So, what about a warden in regular contact with the authorities and local to act as a go between/peacekeeper. We all pay road tax, we are all currently entitled to drive our vehicles no matter what tyres, winch, engine we have fitted. This is, so I'm told, a free country, and as such we must fight to retain the freedom to do as we're told!!...... Just an idea anyway.....it's probably the wine speaking....hic!

how about toll gates at each end of every lane?

With ANPR cameras that can read through mud???