dieseldog69 said:

I've jacked jobs in that pay cold hard cash that feeds me and my family and keeps a roof over my head for being asked to do things that I'm not comfortable with, being asked on an open public forum to help a perfect stranger who has never posted anything and gone an got himself stuck halfway up a Welsh mountain and saying no isn't going to bother me very much at all.

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blue beasty said:

I guess how we think about LZ as a community is simply very different.

I appreciate you don't approve and think it's a bad idea but repeated negative comments about the concept don't improve anything.

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blue beasty said:

I guess how we think about LZ as a community is simply very different.

I appreciate you don't approve and think it's a bad idea but repeated negative comments about the concept don't improve anything.

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jamesmartin said:

i help many on here, you tell me i dont because lz is a community,but im not going to stroke you or mhm ego to ask others to take risks

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jamesmartin said:

well yes how is rushing to helping a first post chancer a community thing looks like ego stroking

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jamesmartin said:

everyone likes to look good its human nature, as a digger driver ive no doubt youve an idea about recovery etc but many work in offices etc and have no real experience

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blue beasty said:

I know you help many and you do so very well , that's how you help the community. Others help in different ways. There's no pressure as to what type of help any give.

The ego comments are unnecessary, I've defended you from such comments in the past because others didn't like how you give to the community.

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dieseldog69 said:

Then they should be even more cautious than me as I push the limits of machinery on a daily basis because I know just how far I can from experience.

I understand that people who do not deal with recovery situations will have a limited grasp of what they are doing but they are the ones that have the call, they are the ones that can easily stand up and make the point that they are unsure and are not confident in doing it, there is no shame in admitting that it is beyond your capability, it has to be said that very seldom are there that many incidents here that have ever needed more than a simple recovery rope and a sturdy tow point, winching is seldom ever required and even then, any recovery must be assessed and scrutinized as well as having the advantage of alternate opinions available for discussion.

The one post wonders are of little interest for me to help unless it's on my doorstep and an easy pull, the more a stuck member has contributed the further out of my way I am prepared to go.

I've no shortage of recovery gear and a competent vehicle to do it with but I'm not giving up the goods on the first date for no one.

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jamesmartin said:

lol, im sure theres a few left wing extremists dont like my input unless it helps their land rover issue, id think your attacks counter your defence though grateful as im sure i am

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blue beasty said:

One last time.

We have changed how we do things largely because of issues that came to a head in this thread, rightful criticism and much discussion and consultation.

I'm not interested in personal issues in the context of LZIR.

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blue beasty said:

Please try and drop the personal stuff, this is LZIR not AG.

I'm talking about attacks and accusations of ego from other pro mechanics that resented the amount of tech support you provide.

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jamesmartin said:

you make it so ie personal i was making points

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Stanleysteamer said:

X is an unknown quantity, and spurt is a drip under pressure, so there you have an expert.
As I posted, I am an ex-recovery operative. Although I have Land Rovers, the recovery truck belonged to my mate, the crew chief so he had the Milemarker winch and all the gear. All I had was the overalls.
I am a bit surprised by all the vilification. I would of course help anyone I could if necessary and I do carry a certain amount of recovery gear, but not the full kit. I would just hate to read or hear of anyone hurting themselves while trying to do a good turn in circumstances that were beyond their capabilities.

I am absolutely not knocking the LZIR, and I am sure that some of the people who have signed up do have some recovery training, but I cannot help but feel that anyone who signs up to it needs to go along to some kind of training to at least get an idea of what they must do to stabilise a vehicle before helping anyone. This is actually the remit of a rescue team in MSA work, but the recovery team usually goes along at the same time to provide back up and support, before recovering the vehicle. Many of the rescue teams contain paramedics and fire and rescue personel in their normal lives anyway.

Goonarmy, "Who else would provide the assessment then?" As far as the safety of the driver and passengers is concerned, the assessment is purely of what danger they are in, and what danger they are likely to find themselves in if they try to move, either to free themselves from the vehicle or to get more help or to a place of safety. If they are conscious enough to make phone calls or use the internet, they can call 999 and get the emergency services to provide rescue. Fire and rescue would not concern themselves with recovery but they would have the ability to organise it especially if the vehicle was in a precarious situation and/or likely to cause obstruction, possible danger or to pollute the environment. The first priority is the human lives involved. Only where the emergency services find themselves overwhelmed by a major incident would people like the the LZIR be put in the front line and put themselves in the position of having to make dramatic decisions. Normally this would be dramatic weather conditions, flood, forest fire, etc.

What concerns me is the person who thinks he can do more than just the basics and then puts himself and possibly others in danger. To give you a perfect example, I was on a training session at Goodwood once where the vehicle that had to be recovered had been put at the bottom of a kind of ravine. One guy on the recovery team tied off the safety rope to a suitable anchor point. Two recovery teams were being used mine and one another, it was one of the other guys who tied the rope. Halfway down the side of the ravine, using the safety rope, I found myself flying through the air. The other operative who tied the rope on had the famous "no idea" I mentioned before. Luckily I rolled into a ball in mid air and landed on my back. I was winded but missed all the concrete blocks that were lying around. i could have died or been seriously injured. And that was during a supervised training session, with 2 recovery crews, on an exercise. If that can happen there, you should be able to imagine far worse happening when a well-meaning amateur tries to go outside his knowledge zone. A vehicle is just a lump of metal, glass and plastic. No one's health and safety is worth trying to recover it. This whole thread shows the folly of trying to do stuff you are not equipped for and have not the training for.

As far as breakdowns are concerned, the LZIR is absolutely in its element, and I have used it myself to find someone with a nanocom to come and help me. But this thread concerns people putting themselves and their vehicles in real danger. The original poster was at fault by trying to get non-professionals to provide a free recovery service in extremely dangerous circumstances. Nothing was the fault of the willing members of the LZIR who tried to help the gormless schmuck who obviously was trying to get a free ride. So don't have a go at me, I am just the messenger who wants no one to suffer.

Pillar, you are mixing up a lot off stuff. I agree with your first two statements, although the second begs the enormous question of what is the LZIR set up to do? If not everyone is recovery trained, then not everyone should attempt recovery, QED. Your third statement tries to make the point that common sense is all you need to conduct a safe assessment before thinking you are capable of doing a recovery, I absolutely have to disagree with that. Common sense is not enough, certainly not enough to take risks with. Did the chap with the Crv use common sense to put himself in his position? As to whether there are a limited number of agencies that will turn out and support, that depends on whether there are risks to human life and well-being or not. If there are then everything will get switched on and come to the rescue, as to the hunk of metal, again, it all depends on where the hunk of metal is. If it is on a public road then commercial recovery teams will come out. If not, you takes your chances. As other posters said, in the latter case then it could well turn into a great opportunity for recovery teams from the LZIR to use it for training purposes and trained teams could train others as to how to do it. Just as MSA teams do. The more trained and fully equipped teams there are in the LZIR the better, but there will always be a huge majority of willing members with the time and desire to help others who will turn out to provide comfort, help with accommodation, food, drink, the loan of tools, the sourcing of parts and help with fitting them. This is exactly as it should be. Light recovery, within the capability of the person performing the operation, is also a possibility. But even then, the simple attaching of a tow rope in the proper manner and to the proper part of a vehicle is not obvious. Much damage can be done by a willing person who is keen to help. Winch cables in particular are dangerous things if anything goes wrong. I agree totally with your final statement, and would never wish to put anyone off from trying, in a safe way to help others.

Finally my comment re insurance was purely for those thinking of doing MSA recovery for the MSA. It was a shock to us to find out that we were not covered especially when we knew the risks that we sometimes took. When the message "Vehicle upside down, people trapped, smoke coming from vehicle" comes over the radio, you do not stop to think, you go like the very devil to get to the vehicle. Travelling at huge speed in a Disco 1 van full of heavy recovery gear towing a jib, around a special stage, you are likely to have an "off" yourself, when speeding to potentially save life. Obviously commercial recovery people have proper insurance and no amateur would have it, or get it, unless they were properly trained and certificated. So all the remarks about insurance were tongue in cheek I am sure.

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Stanleysteamer said:

X is an unknown quantity, and spurt is a drip under pressure, so there you have an expert.
As I posted, I am an ex-recovery operative. Although I have Land Rovers, the recovery truck belonged to my mate, the crew chief so he had the Milemarker winch and all the gear. All I had was the overalls.
I am a bit surprised by all the vilification. I would of course help anyone I could if necessary and I do carry a certain amount of recovery gear, but not the full kit. I would just hate to read or hear of anyone hurting themselves while trying to do a good turn in circumstances that were beyond their capabilities.

I am absolutely not knocking the LZIR, and I am sure that some of the people who have signed up do have some recovery training, but I cannot help but feel that anyone who signs up to it needs to go along to some kind of training to at least get an idea of what they must do to stabilise a vehicle before helping anyone. This is actually the remit of a rescue team in MSA work, but the recovery team usually goes along at the same time to provide back up and support, before recovering the vehicle. Many of the rescue teams contain paramedics and fire and rescue personel in their normal lives anyway.

Goonarmy, "Who else would provide the assessment then?" As far as the safety of the driver and passengers is concerned, the assessment is purely of what danger they are in, and what danger they are likely to find themselves in if they try to move, either to free themselves from the vehicle or to get more help or to a place of safety. If they are conscious enough to make phone calls or use the internet, they can call 999 and get the emergency services to provide rescue. Fire and rescue would not concern themselves with recovery but they would have the ability to organise it especially if the vehicle was in a precarious situation and/or likely to cause obstruction, possible danger or to pollute the environment. The first priority is the human lives involved. Only where the emergency services find themselves overwhelmed by a major incident would people like the the LZIR be put in the front line and put themselves in the position of having to make dramatic decisions. Normally this would be dramatic weather conditions, flood, forest fire, etc.

What concerns me is the person who thinks he can do more than just the basics and then puts himself and possibly others in danger. To give you a perfect example, I was on a training session at Goodwood once where the vehicle that had to be recovered had been put at the bottom of a kind of ravine. One guy on the recovery team tied off the safety rope to a suitable anchor point. Two recovery teams were being used mine and one another, it was one of the other guys who tied the rope. Halfway down the side of the ravine, using the safety rope, I found myself flying through the air. The other operative who tied the rope on had the famous "no idea" I mentioned before. Luckily I rolled into a ball in mid air and landed on my back. I was winded but missed all the concrete blocks that were lying around. i could have died or been seriously injured. And that was during a supervised training session, with 2 recovery crews, on an exercise. If that can happen there, you should be able to imagine far worse happening when a well-meaning amateur tries to go outside his knowledge zone. A vehicle is just a lump of metal, glass and plastic. No one's health and safety is worth trying to recover it. This whole thread shows the folly of trying to do stuff you are not equipped for and have not the training for.

As far as breakdowns are concerned, the LZIR is absolutely in its element, and I have used it myself to find someone with a nanocom to come and help me. But this thread concerns people putting themselves and their vehicles in real danger. The original poster was at fault by trying to get non-professionals to provide a free recovery service in extremely dangerous circumstances. Nothing was the fault of the willing members of the LZIR who tried to help the gormless schmuck who obviously was trying to get a free ride. So don't have a go at me, I am just the messenger who wants no one to suffer.

Pillar, you are mixing up a lot off stuff. I agree with your first two statements, although the second begs the enormous question of what is the LZIR set up to do? If not everyone is recovery trained, then not everyone should attempt recovery, QED. Your third statement tries to make the point that common sense is all you need to conduct a safe assessment before thinking you are capable of doing a recovery, I absolutely have to disagree with that. Common sense is not enough, certainly not enough to take risks with. Did the chap with the Crv use common sense to put himself in his position? As to whether there are a limited number of agencies that will turn out and support, that depends on whether there are risks to human life and well-being or not. If there are then everything will get switched on and come to the rescue, as to the hunk of metal, again, it all depends on where the hunk of metal is. If it is on a public road then commercial recovery teams will come out. If not, you takes your chances. As other posters said, in the latter case then it could well turn into a great opportunity for recovery teams from the LZIR to use it for training purposes and trained teams could train others as to how to do it. Just as MSA teams do. The more trained and fully equipped teams there are in the LZIR the better, but there will always be a huge majority of willing members with the time and desire to help others who will turn out to provide comfort, help with accommodation, food, drink, the loan of tools, the sourcing of parts and help with fitting them. This is exactly as it should be. Light recovery, within the capability of the person performing the operation, is also a possibility. But even then, the simple attaching of a tow rope in the proper manner and to the proper part of a vehicle is not obvious. Much damage can be done by a willing person who is keen to help. Winch cables in particular are dangerous things if anything goes wrong. I agree totally with your final statement, and would never wish to put anyone off from trying, in a safe way to help others.

Finally my comment re insurance was purely for those thinking of doing MSA recovery for the MSA. It was a shock to us to find out that we were not covered especially when we knew the risks that we sometimes took. When the message "Vehicle upside down, people trapped, smoke coming from vehicle" comes over the radio, you do not stop to think, you go like the very devil to get to the vehicle. Travelling at huge speed in a Disco 1 van full of heavy recovery gear towing a jib, around a special stage, you are likely to have an "off" yourself, when speeding to potentially save life. Obviously commercial recovery people have proper insurance and no amateur would have it, or get it, unless they were properly trained and certificated. So all the remarks about insurance were tongue in cheek I am sure.

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Hippo said:

As others have said this is an old thread and changes in the way we operate have been made. While eye can appreciate yer concern, yer have picked the worse case fred. Most of lzir volentry work relates ter needing a fool pump, spanner or lift ter alford's fer a part. It is rare we're called out to conditions such as this fred was started for.

Yer points are valid but yer have also proven even peeps who have training make mistakes and risk killing themselves. On said occasion "trained" peeps made mistakes which should not of happened. There seems ter be an implied suggestion from yer post that MSA training gives yer some sort of professional standing of which we can only aspire too. It doesn't and anyone thinking this is foolish. It's no different to any other subject being tested. You passed the course when being tested on said ocasion. It doesn't mean you will always pass int future or never make mistakes. It doesn't mean yer will always follow best practice. You were "flying through the air" because you as a team were doing something wrong. That's professionals making mistakes, not realising the limits of their ability or simply no following the good practice they should have.

Incidents like said flying happened fer a reason. They don't happen by accident. It would be unwise ter preach to lzir about skill levels and ability when on that occasion you did not meet yer own required standards.

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Stanleysteamer said:

Hippo, you are absolutely right about nearly 99% of what you said in this post. But I would contest the quote about "preaching". I used the example of my flight to underline exactly what you said about even professionals occasionally making mistakes. The guy who tied off the rope, not me, knew not enough about knots and lashings. I should have checked it before going down using it and I didn't. My mistake. So there you are two mistakes. On your point about only being OK on the day of the test is of course valid, as it is for any test. But MSA operatives have to do training and testing once a year, this was exactly what was going on at the time. I am not preaching about my skill levels or anything else to do with myself, I am only using myself as an example. By the way MSA recovery people are not necessarily professionals, I certainly was not, nor was my crew chief, in fact thinking about it I only knew of one crew that was. You said I was giving the impression or implying that my MSA training gave me some sort of professional standing which others can only aspire to. No, I did not say that, I just gave it as an example in which people, amateurs, can get very inexpensive training in a fun way. In case they were not aware of it. I am not here to big myself up, I am posting to try and help others.

But in their own humorous way, others have posted saying I should front up and register myself with LZIR. I haven't done this in the past because I am only in the UK during the 6 winter months, but as the "I" stands for international, and I am in France for the other 6 months, I will now ask if I can be registered. So there you go. I now only have a limited amount of kit but if someone with lots more kit goes on a shout and I come along, I would hope I could be more than just a tiny bit useful. As you said most of the shouts are just for running around type stuff and I am as willing to do that as anyone else.

So please can a dispatcher or someone get in touch and tell me how to go about it?

Thanks

Stan

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Stanleysteamer said:

Hippo, you are absolutely right about nearly 99% of what you said in this post. But I would contest the quote about "preaching". I used the example of my flight to underline exactly what you said about even professionals occasionally making mistakes. The guy who tied off the rope, not me, knew not enough about knots and lashings. I should have checked it before going down using it and I didn't. My mistake. So there you are two mistakes. On your point about only being OK on the day of the test is of course valid, as it is for any test. But MSA operatives have to do training and testing once a year, this was exactly what was going on at the time. I am not preaching about my skill levels or anything else to do with myself, I am only using myself as an example. By the way MSA recovery people are not necessarily professionals, I certainly was not, nor was my crew chief, in fact thinking about it I only knew of one crew that was. You said I was giving the impression or implying that my MSA training gave me some sort of professional standing which others can only aspire to. No, I did not say that, I just gave it as an example in which people, amateurs, can get very inexpensive training in a fun way. In case they were not aware of it. I am not here to big myself up, I am posting to try and help others.

But in their own humorous way, others have posted saying I should front up and register myself with LZIR. I haven't done this in the past because I am only in the UK during the 6 winter months, but as the "I" stands for international, and I am in France for the other 6 months, I will now ask if I can be registered. So there you go. I now only have a limited amount of kit but if someone with lots more kit goes on a shout and I come along, I would hope I could be more than just a tiny bit useful. As you said most of the shouts are just for running around type stuff and I am as willing to do that as anyone else.

So please can a dispatcher or someone get in touch and tell me how to go about it?

Thanks

Stan

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